Re: Yes it's off topic but who cares right now.
so, if we did not learn enough following the french into indochina, we can learn more by following the russians into afghanastan? this does not seem like a sucess path to me.
the successful part of our culture is about tolerance and learning to live with folk different than we (for many values of 'we' and 'different').
Randy, I truly doubt you understand the idea of war and protection of our citizens. The USA is not going to retaliate... It is answering a call of war - one that has been ongoing for many years. Unlike the Russians going into Afghanistan, our even the US going into South Viet Nam (or the French in your example), we have the skill to go up to the street bully, knock him out, knock the dust off our hands and walk away. It is not like it needs to be 20,000 troops driving into that country. Standing back and hoping it will go away because we want to be "peaceful" has NOT proven to work over the last ten years.
resist the cycle of violence and hate.
I agree. But this action doesn't need to be attached the words violence and hate. It is better attributed to, enough is enough, and knock the bully out. Truly, that simple. Best regards to you Randy,
I think Randy understands all too well. This war will not be fought on some distant shore. It will not be fought in Afghanistan. It will be fought right here--in our houses, in our streets, in our workplaces. Are you all ready for that? The USA will retaliate, but it must not do so capriciously, and it must not do so with the insane mob mentalities that have been floating about this and other lists. Make no mistake, our country must defend itself. But even in the wake of these heinous acts we cannot let our conduct make us the terrorists and oppressors and imperialists that the fanatics say we are. It is truly a cycle. Not only of violence and hate, but of staying true to our values. When a bully is rampant in the school yard, if one person knocks this bully out, the bully is still free to pick on other, weaker souls. It is only when all stand together and refuse to be bullied or to support the bully's actions that the aggressor finds he has no audience, and thus no power. David Klindt wrote:
Randy, I truly doubt you understand the idea of war and protection of our citizens. The USA is not going to retaliate... It is answering a call of war - one that has been ongoing for many years. Unlike the Russians going into Afghanistan, our even the US going into South Viet Nam (or the French in your example), we have the skill to go up to the street bully, knock him out, knock the dust off our hands and walk away. It is not like it needs to be 20,000 troops driving into that country.
Standing back and hoping it will go away because we want to be "peaceful" has NOT proven to work over the last ten years.
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen Kowalchuk skowalchuk@diamonex.com Diamonex, Incorporated The wise therefore rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies, by weakening ambitions and strengthening bones. -- Lao Tsu --------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think Randy understands all too well. This war will not be fought on some distant shore. It will not be fought in Afghanistan. It will be fought right here--in our houses, in our streets, in our workplaces. Are you all ready for that?
The USA will retaliate, but it must not do so capriciously, and it must not do so with the insane mob mentalities that have been floating about this and other lists. Make no mistake, our country must defend itself. But even in the wake of these heinous acts we cannot let our conduct make us the terrorists and oppressors and imperialists that the fanatics say we are.
It is truly a cycle. Not only of violence and hate, but of staying true to our values. When a bully is rampant in the school yard, if one person knocks this bully out, the bully is still free to pick on other, weaker souls. It is only when all stand together and refuse to be bullied or to support the bully's actions that the aggressor finds he has no audience, and thus no power.
and the hardest part is doing so without being bullies ourselves. and we should be sensitive about this as we are not _perceived_ as having done well in this respect for the last half century. and this latter seems to be a factor in the mess we find ourselves today. randy
Randy, I have to ask, how should we have conducted ourselves so that Bin Laden and the Egyptian Islamic Jihad would not hate us and kill us? A moment's thought will conclude that it is our existence and beliefs, not our conduct, that they hate. To quote (approximately) the great pragmatic philosopher Lazarus Long, the only things to do with an enemy are make a friend of him or kill him. Leaving him alive and still an enemy is foolish. In the long run Islam will have to purge itself of its Crusaders, just as other religions largely have. The war is not against Islam but against a set of murderous fanatics, and it would be foolish indeed NOT to hate them. Barney Wolff On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 01:00:51PM -0400, Randy Bush wrote:
and the hardest part is doing so without being bullies ourselves. and we should be sensitive about this as we are not _perceived_ as having done well in this respect for the last half century. and this latter seems to be a factor in the mess we find ourselves today.
To quote (approximately) the great pragmatic philosopher Lazarus Long, the only things to do with an enemy are make a friend of him or kill him. Leaving him alive and still an enemy is foolish.
I don't know who said it but, to add "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggy' while searching for a bigger rock"
At 09:10 PM 9/14/01 -0400, Eric Germann wrote:
To quote (approximately) the great pragmatic philosopher Lazarus Long, the only things to do with an enemy are make a friend of him or kill him. Leaving him alive and still an enemy is foolish.
I don't know who said it but, to add
"Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggy' while searching for a bigger rock"
I believe Wynn Catlin is the author. jas
To quote (approximately) the great pragmatic philosopher Lazarus Long, the only things to do with an enemy are make a friend of him or kill him. Leaving him alive and still an enemy is foolish.
Your enemy is never a villian in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate -- and quickly. Lazarus Long (RAH) ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/
On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Barney Wolff wrote:
In the long run Islam will have to purge itself of its Crusaders, just as other religions largely have. The war is not against Islam but against a set of murderous fanatics, and it would be foolish indeed NOT to hate them.
Remember, the rise of the fundamentalist Muslim "crusader" was a direct reaction from the formerly "modern" _despots_ put in place, and maintained in place, by the U.S. The Shah used his people as a playground for the secret police. Dozens of other countires have been in the same position. The one thing MANY of these now "fundamentalist" countries share in common is a long history of extreme conditions which were put in place by, and supported by, the "peace loving citizens of the United States". Bah. The crusaders could never have come to power if we had acted like HUMAN BEINGS. Or even less, if we had just practiced what we preached. -- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 measl@mfn.org wrote:
The crusaders could never have come to power if we had acted like HUMAN BEINGS. Or even less, if we had just practiced what we preached.
I, for once, agree. OTOH, there were Soviets which were in no way better than US. --vadim
On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Vadim Antonov wrote:
On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 measl@mfn.org wrote:
The crusaders could never have come to power if we had acted like HUMAN BEINGS. Or even less, if we had just practiced what we preached.
I, for once, agree. OTOH, there were Soviets which were in no way better than US.
In fact, I would agree that the Soviets were, at least in most respects, much worse than anything the U.S. has yet fallen to. Unfortunately, this does not in any way excuse _our_ behaviour.
--vadim
-- Yours, J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they should give serious consideration towards setting a better example: Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate... This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers, associates, or others. Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the first place... --------------------------------------------------------------------
This is utterly irrelevant even if it were true. If you want to argue that we *deserved* to have 5000 killed because we are an evil nation and that we should simply accept future attacks as just punishments, go ahead and offer yourself up in sacrificial atonement. The sane rest of us will be concerned with the survival of ourselves, our families, our nation and our civilization. The rise of Hitler was arguably caused in large part by the overly vicious punishment of Germany at Versailles. Did that change, in any way whatsoever, how we had to, and eventually did, react? I continue to hope for leadership from the decent majority of Islam to take action to purge the indecent minority. The war is not against all Islam or even against fundamentalist Islam, but against terrorist Islam, and indeed against all terrorism. It must be prosecuted, whether by Islam itself or by the rest of the world. A purely defensive strategy has seldom succeeded in human history. Barney Wolff On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 09:56:26AM -0500, measl@mfn.org wrote:
The crusaders could never have come to power if we had acted like HUMAN BEINGS. Or even less, if we had just practiced what we preached.
I think Randy understands all too well. This war will not be fought on some distant shore. It will not be fought in Afghanistan. It will be fought right here--in our houses, in our streets, in our workplaces. Are you all ready for that?
Sir, the war is being fought here already! In some form, it has been for years.
The USA will retaliate, but it must not do so capriciously,
I agree... A well though out procedure is the best.
bully out, the bully is still free to pick on other, weaker souls. It is only when all stand together and refuse to be bullied or to support the bully's actions that the aggressor finds he has no audience, and thus no power.
Well, if we really "knock out" the bully, he will not be around to mess with others.
I started this thread, hopefully this will end it but somehow I doubt it. Fact: We were attacked. Fact: We are in a state of war Fact: The enemy doesn't have a specific geographic location we can bomb the crap out of. We as a nation must defend ourselves. If we do nothing about this because "violence and hate beget violence and hate" then it's going to happen again and again. Violence and hate then are not the opertative words here. Justice and prevention are. There are many reasons that the Muslims hate the US. These reasons cannot be easily summarized into a couple of emails. To write a history of Middle East tensions and US involvement (or even exacerbation) in these tensions would fill volumes. But here we are; we've been attacked and if we don't do something about it we will be attacked again and again. Even if we do something we will probably be attacked again. We must therefore act with switftness to eradicate (and continually prune) the organizations that exist for the purpose of defeating the United States. Enough said. Go get them! Larry Diffey
There are many reasons that the Muslims hate the US.
s/muslims/most of the world/ we are the most hated country in the world. as you say, there are many reasons. but, whatever they may be, if we bomb all of the planet that hates us, there won't be enough left for us or anyone else to survive. be pragmatic. all these frustrating emotions of fear and hate (and hate is often the consequence of fear) should not lead us into precipitous actions which have no long-run win. all the braggadocio can not obscure our lack of success fighting determined guerrillas and terrorists. it's not an easy problem. if it was, the world would be a much more peaceful place already. resist the cycle of violence and hate, if not for morality, then because it is just plain not pragmatic. we do have norms for justice, prudence, and process. if we do not follow them, then we have become the enemy and the terrorists have won. randy
I've attached a small image for your web sites. James
My fear is (1) that it won't be so easy to knock the enemy out & (2) that if we rely exclusively on violence & threats of violence against people & countries, we will intensify the enemy's hatred & create more enemies. The goal of eliminating all terrorism by eliminating all terrorists is a counterproductive chimera. It has not worked for the Israelis & it won't work for us. (Consider how young most terrorists are. How many of them remember the war of 1948?) Bin Laden hates us partly because we had troops in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf war. So we are proposing (I hear) to demand that Pakistan allow us to use it as a staging area for strikes on Afghanistan. And Pakistan has nuclear weapons! One might as well walk across a newly-painted floor to touch up a spot on the other side. It is especially important to avoid this trap at a time when we need every friend that we can get. I believe that an important part of avoiding it is to try to understand and eliminate those causes of that hatred that it is within our power to eliminate. Unfortunately, not all are and never were, but some are & we need to understand what they are and work on them. We have suddenly gone from feeling pretty invulnerable to feeling vulnerable in the extreme. First it was the dot.com bubble burst. Now this awful thing that dwarfs the worry about losing our jobs. We are still better off as regards both economic & physical security & the posession of power than the vast majority of mankind has been through all of history, and that will continue to cause problems for us. That and a failure to pay sufficient respect to the sensibilities of others. The point here is not to say shame on us. The point here is to say we need to be careful whom we offend. It might have been better to learn to live without Middle Eastern oil than to have offended Bin Laden. This is not to defend him or his actions. No event that I have lived through, including Pearl Harbor & the Cuban missle crisis, has made me as sick at heart and frightened for the future as the attack on the Trade towers, & I want Bin Laden & his networks found and eliminated. But This is an area where it is especially hard to avoid taking counteproductive action. We need to be cautious and understanding about the way we proceed. David On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, David Klindt wrote: :Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 08:28:51 -0700 (PDT) :From: David Klindt <dklindt@cobra.ordata.com> :To: nanog@merit.edu :Cc: Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> :Subject: Re: Yes it's off topic but who cares right now. : : :> so, if we did not learn enough following the french into indochina, we :> can learn more by following the russians into afghanastan? this does :> not seem like a sucess path to me. : :> the successful part of our culture is about tolerance and learning to :> live with folk different than we (for many values of 'we' and :> 'different'). : :Randy, I truly doubt you understand the idea of war and protection of our :citizens. The USA is not going to retaliate... It is answering a call of :war - one that has been ongoing for many years. Unlike the Russians going :into Afghanistan, our even the US going into South Viet Nam (or the French :in your example), we have the skill to go up to the street bully, knock :him out, knock the dust off our hands and walk away. It is not like it :needs to be 20,000 troops driving into that country. : :Standing back and hoping it will go away because we want to be "peaceful" :has NOT proven to work over the last ten years. : :> resist the cycle of violence and hate. : :I agree. But this action doesn't need to be attached the words violence :and hate. It is better attributed to, enough is enough, and knock the :bully out. Truly, that simple. : :Best regards to you Randy, : : :
participants (12)
-
Barney Wolff -
Christopher X. Candreva -
David Coder -
David Klindt -
Eric Germann -
James McKenzie -
John Starta -
Larry Diffey -
measl＠mfn.org -
Randy Bush -
Stephen Kowalchuk -
Vadim Antonov