Re: New N.Y. Law Targets Hidden Net LD Tolls
On Thu, Aug 18, 2005 at 12:19:25AM -0700, William C. Devine II wrote:
Just about all of the ISP's in my area, even those I've worked for, had a 'disclaimer' on their user agreement that said that some of the local phone numbers might be long distance and that the user should call the operator to verify it is a local call before placing the call. Is that warning enough, or are they saying the ISP must keep a database of users' addresses and specifically warn that user that out of the 10 local call-in numbers, based on their zip code, these three (A, B, C) could be long distance?
To quote the original pasted article:
Consumers, however, must act on the warning that Internet providers must soon post by contacting their phone companies to find out whether a number is truly local.
Many service providers already post such warnings. America Online Inc. agreed to do so in 1989, while the New York Attorney General's Office in 2001 secured similar agreements with 25 New York-based Internet providers including AT&T Worldnet.
Sounds like the standard notice that all reputable ISPs are probably already giving. Given the very real potential for grandma and grandpa to pick a number off a list which looks like it is in their area code and end up with a multi-thousand dollar phone bill the next month, I'm surprised consumer protection folks haven't asked for such a requirement sooner. On Thu, Aug 18, 2005 at 03:07:57AM -0400, Eric A. Hall wrote:
Seems to me the appropriate response is for the AG office to pursue the people who are running the toll scams, not to push enforcement out to uninvolved third parties. Having dealt with AGs in the past, I know that's just whistling dixie, but still the notion of introducing liability is kind of spooky.
I'm not sure which part of "this seems to have nothing to do with toll scams" wasn't clear the first time around, but this response still seems to have no basis given the facts... -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Richard A Steenbergen wrote:
Sounds like the standard notice that all reputable ISPs are probably already giving. Given the very real potential for grandma and grandpa to pick a number off a list which looks like it is in their area code and end up with a multi-thousand dollar phone bill the next month, I'm surprised consumer protection folks haven't asked for such a requirement sooner.
I assume the NY AG will also be targeting enforcement of Domino's Pizza because they have lots of phone numbers and consumers may unknowingly dial a phone number to order a pizza which may be a toll call in their area.
On Thu, Aug 18, 2005 at 04:05:30AM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Richard A Steenbergen wrote:
Sounds like the standard notice that all reputable ISPs are probably already giving. Given the very real potential for grandma and grandpa to pick a number off a list which looks like it is in their area code and end up with a multi-thousand dollar phone bill the next month, I'm surprised consumer protection folks haven't asked for such a requirement sooner.
I assume the NY AG will also be targeting enforcement of Domino's Pizza because they have lots of phone numbers and consumers may unknowingly dial a phone number to order a pizza which may be a toll call in their area.
If we're making silly comparisons now, sure. Ordering Domino's from a long distance number is not the kind of activity where an innocent and unsuspecting person can accidentally run up thousands of dollars in charges which they may know nothing about until the next month's phone bill arrives, for something that they had a (semi)reasonable expectation to be free. Besides, I don't know if you've ever had the problem of living a block away from where the magic cutoff line for delivery is, but you can barely get those guys to deliver within evan a few miles let alone outside your local calling region. -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Sean,
I assume the NY AG will also be targeting enforcement of Domino's Pizza because they have lots of phone numbers and consumers may unknowingly dial a phone number to order a pizza which may be a toll call in their area.
Somehow I don't think so. It takes maybe 5 minutes to order a pizza from Domino's (you can also order from www.dominos.com) unless your really indecisive. However, surfing the Internet, could take considerably longer (especially for power-users like us).
Apologies on the triple post. Mea Culpa. -- Jonathan M. Slivko Systems Administrator/Consultant Simpli Networks 646.461.6489 direct 208.330.8412 fax www.simplinetworks.com <http://www.simplinetworks.com/> CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan M. Slivko" <lists@slivko.org> To: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com>; <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 4:27 AM Subject: Re: New N.Y. Law Targets Hidden Net LD Tolls
Sean,
I assume the NY AG will also be targeting enforcement of Domino's Pizza because they have lots of phone numbers and consumers may unknowingly
dial
a phone number to order a pizza which may be a toll call in their area.
Somehow I don't think so. It takes maybe 5 minutes to order a pizza from Domino's (you can also order from www.dominos.com) unless your really indecisive. However, surfing the Internet, could take considerably longer (especially for power-users like us).
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Jonathan M. Slivko wrote:
I assume the NY AG will also be targeting enforcement of Domino's Pizza because they have lots of phone numbers and consumers may unknowingly dial a phone number to order a pizza which may be a toll call in their area.
Somehow I don't think so. It takes maybe 5 minutes to order a pizza from Domino's (you can also order from www.dominos.com) unless your really indecisive. However, surfing the Internet, could take considerably longer (especially for power-users like us).
Those pennies can add up. And if you have ever called a government office, you can sometimes spend a long time listening to music on hold. Does the NY State Goverment warning citizens they may be charged for phone calls to government offices? This is one of those "feel good laws" that doesn't actually change anything.
Those pennies can add up. And if you have ever called a government office, you can sometimes spend a long time listening to music on hold. Does the NY State Goverment warning citizens they may be charged for phone calls to government offices?
I'm not sure if that's the same thing - since usually they are either local offices (broken up by district within a city) or a toll free national number to Albany or some other call center. As far as your "Those pennies can add up" statement - I agree. But not to the same degree as an Internet surfer. You would have to make ALOT of calls to Dominos in order to match up to an Internet users bill. As an aside, while I was travelling outside the US on my T-Mobile phone (roaming), as soon as I landed in the airport and turned my phone on - I got a text message from the local cell carrier saying that I can dial 611 and 123 just as if I was home. However, what they DON'T tell you is that your going to be charged international roaming rates for that call - even if your calling your home customer service. That's something that the NY AG should go after, not this and at $3/min, it's a bigger nuiscance and a bigger bill in a shorter ammount of time. Something definately doesn't smell right - oh, and btw, that includes calls to the roaming carriers customer service department too. Go figure.
This is one of those "feel good laws" that doesn't actually change anything.
100% agreed - there's more pressing matters that needs to be taken care of first. (N.B. I'm actually a resident of New York State)
Sean,
I assume the NY AG will also be targeting enforcement of Domino's Pizza because they have lots of phone numbers and consumers may unknowingly dial a phone number to order a pizza which may be a toll call in their area.
Somehow I don't think so. It takes maybe 5 minutes to order a pizza from Domino's (you can also order from www.dominos.com) unless your really indecisive. However, surfing the Internet, could take considerably longer (especially for power-users like us).
Sean,
I assume the NY AG will also be targeting enforcement of Domino's Pizza because they have lots of phone numbers and consumers may unknowingly dial a phone number to order a pizza which may be a toll call in their area.
Somehow I don't think so. It takes maybe 5 minutes to order a pizza from Domino's (you can also order from www.dominos.com) unless your really indecisive. However, surfing the Internet, could take considerably longer (especially for power-users like us).
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Sean Donelan wrote:
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005, Richard A Steenbergen wrote:
Sounds like the standard notice that all reputable ISPs are probably already giving. Given the very real potential for grandma and grandpa to pick a number off a list which looks like it is in their area code and end up with a multi-thousand dollar phone bill the next month, I'm surprised consumer protection folks haven't asked for such a requirement sooner.
I assume the NY AG will also be targeting enforcement of Domino's Pizza because they have lots of phone numbers and consumers may unknowingly dial a phone number to order a pizza which may be a toll call in their area.
The difference between a call to Dominos pizza and browsing the Web is that you usually don't make 200+ calls / month averaging 20 minutes in length to order pizza. If you do, I think you have an eating disorder! ;) -- Vice President of N2Net, a New Age Consulting Service, Inc. Company http://www.n2net.net Where everything clicks into place! KP-216-121-ST
--- Sean Donelan <sean@donelan.com> wrote:
I assume the NY AG will also be targeting enforcement of Domino's Pizza because they have lots of phone numbers and consumers may unknowingly dial a phone number to order a pizza which may be a toll call in their area.
A typical call to Domino's lasts < 2 minutes, and if it's not actually a local call, you're almost certainly not in the delivery area (and would get redirected to the correct store). Accidentally dialing a nonlocal Domino's results in a $.10 bill (and no pizza). A typical call to a dial-up ISP is what, a few hours? Multiple times per month? Accidentally using a non-local ISP number can result in a bill in the hundreds of dollars pretty easily (also no pizza). -David David Barak Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise: http://www.listentothefranchise.com ____________________________________________________ Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
On 8/18/2005 3:54 AM, Richard A Steenbergen wrote:
I'm not sure which part of "this seems to have nothing to do with toll scams" wasn't clear the first time around, but this response still seems to have no basis given the facts...
Is the NY AG authorized to regulate other-than "illegal" activity? -- Eric A. Hall http://www.ehsco.com/ Internet Core Protocols http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/coreprot/
On Thu, Aug 18, 2005 at 04:19:25AM -0400, Eric A. Hall wrote:
On 8/18/2005 3:54 AM, Richard A Steenbergen wrote:
I'm not sure which part of "this seems to have nothing to do with toll scams" wasn't clear the first time around, but this response still seems to have no basis given the facts...
Is the NY AG authorized to regulate other-than "illegal" activity?
Well for starters, yes. http://www.oag.state.ny.us/tour/tour.html Note the Criminal Division and Division of Public Advocacy. Another interesting link: http://www.oag.state.ny.us/internet/internet.html But even ignoring that part for now, the only reference to the AG in the article cited is that they secured an agreement with 25 large providers in 2001 to include a notice/disclaimer to consumers. Why am I the only person who is capable of reading the article in question before commenting on NANOG? :) -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
Hi, On Thu, Aug 18, 2005 at 03:54:38AM -0400, Richard A Steenbergen wrote:
To quote the original pasted article:
Consumers, however, must act on the warning that Internet providers must soon post by contacting their phone companies to find out whether a number is truly local.
It used to be standard practice until last year that SBC (dial-up and DSL provider here in this area, as well as the 'Bell' phone company) let you look up dial-in numbers for 'your' local area code and exchange. However, the results only came back without any numbers in your own area code, just the ones from other area codes where they had dial-in numbers. If you did not know how to work the system, you would be using one of the numbers that are truly a toll call for you. And you'd pay to SBC-the_phone_company to get to SBC-the_ISP because the ISP withheld the local numbers from you. The way how to work the system was to enter another valid area code and exchange, then look for dial-in numbers in your area code and finally determine (e.g. by checking in the listing in the local phone book front pages or by inquiring from the 'dial zero' operator) which of the numbers are inside your toll free calling area. Since then (I can't tell exactly when, because I only used this lookup feature when I was about to travel out of town) SBC has changed this practice and you can get all numbers listed from their search page at http://sbcyahoo.prodigy.net/openPhone/ . Note the disclaimer explanations right on that page "Long Distance Charges" and "Finding the Best Exchange for You". -andreas -- Andreas Ott andreas@naund.org
participants (7)
-
Andreas Ott -
David Barak -
Eric A. Hall -
Greg Boehnlein -
Jonathan M. Slivko -
Richard A Steenbergen -
Sean Donelan