This issues has relevance to nanog--the veiled encouragement to break-ins I see here does result into network operational problems, more than most of the spams do.
You misunderstand my point. I do NOT encourage breakins, mailbombing, SYN-flooding or any other kind of attacks as a solution to the SPAM problem. It's not a technical problem so technical solutions won't cut it.
You are correct that SPAM itself is not a technical problem. But, mail-relaying *is* a technical problem -- and regardless of the the legalities of UCE (aka SPAM), unauthorized use of other MTA's as relays *is* network abuse. This can be solved technically. Once the originating MTA must be the same network as the originator of the SPAM, it will be much easier to deal with the SPAM issue. Matt
From: "Matthew James Gering" <mgering@ricochet.net>
This can be solved technically. Once the originating MTA must be the same network as the originator of the SPAM, it will be much easier to deal with the SPAM issue.
No it can't be solved technically, except in theory. I love the blind belief in technology we see here, it would make an inquisition era cleric weep with jealousy at such unflappable demonstrations of faith in the face of arbitrary pain. What has to be done is to get these third-party relay spammers arrested, sued, and their heads hung out on poles for all to see and give pause to others who might think of doing this. To me, saying this can be solved technically is like saying that a rash of window breakings in your neighborhood can be solved "technically" -- everyone merely has to nail up plywood over all their windows and voila', end of problem. You want to see the arrogance of one particularly cancerous third-party spammer who thinks they're absolutely right and what they do is fine look at http://www.1-global.com/index.htm (Phoenix Interactive.) I had one of these creeps on the telephone (they answer their phone), he blandly offered to take our site off their list if we like, as if he was finding me a good table near the band on a busy night. Not that they don't have a hint, their ads offer to bulk email millions of messages and *they'll take the flames for you* (their wording)! They just simply don't give a shit, to be blunt, stop them with the law or equivalant or they'll just keep doing what they're doing, there's always another site which doesn't have relaying blocked, they'll find them as fast as they need, and they owe you and I and everyone else absolutely nothing. We have relaying blocked here but tonight they were pounding user accounts thru some other victim relay site. So I blocked that mail address. Twenty minutes later, boom, they're continuing with another email address. Ok, I blocked that and now they seem to have gone away, what fun, what a way to fill the moments between the womb and the tomb! And btw if anyone has any urge to give me a technical hint as a response you really don't f***ing get it, save your typing. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | http://www.std.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD The World | Public Access Internet | Since 1989
On Fri, 18 Apr 1997, Barry Shein wrote:
From: "Matthew James Gering" <mgering@ricochet.net>
This can be solved technically. Once the originating MTA must be the same network as the originator of the SPAM, it will be much easier to deal with the SPAM issue.
No it can't be solved technically, except in theory.
Not even in theory. There is no way for service providers or governments to stop spam.
What has to be done is to get these third-party relay spammers arrested, sued, and their heads hung out on poles for all to see and give pause to others who might think of doing this.
Judges (in the US) would not do that because nobody dies or goes broke as a result of spam. It's merely annoying. But even if US judges were willing to nail spammers, the spammers would simply move out of their jurisdictions. With strict anti-spam laws in place, what would you do if you were being spammed from a site in Liberia? Same thing you do now.
To me, saying this can be solved technically is like saying that a rash of window breakings in your neighborhood can be solved "technically" -- everyone merely has to nail up plywood over all their windows and voila', end of problem.
Well, your options are limited. You can do technical things because that's within your power. But the only laws that will affect spam, are the laws of economics. Bill
On Sun, 20 Apr 1997, Bill Becker wrote:
What has to be done is to get these third-party relay spammers arrested, sued, and their heads hung out on poles for all to see and give pause to others who might think of doing this.
Judges (in the US) would not do that because nobody dies or goes broke as a result of spam. It's merely annoying. But even if US judges were willing to nail spammers, the spammers would simply move out of their jurisdictions. With strict anti-spam laws in place, what would you do if you were being spammed from a site in Liberia? Same thing you do now.
And then in the US, we would get into first amendment issues, questions about what is considered spam, and of course, my favorite and yours, how to figure out how much money was lost from this spam. You just can't do it. Once again I say, if governments start putting their noses in places they don't, they are going to loose. Heck, can we consider Internet users a race? Hey, maybe we can apply for Affirmative Action (US) and collect benefits because we are a minority. There are simply too many Internet users in too many countries which don't agree on policy to regulate anything effectively. And are you REALLY ready to give the government access to your routers so they can monitor traffic? I don't think so. Jordan -- Jordan Mendelson : www.wserv.com/~jordy/ Web Services, Inc. : www.wserv.com
On April 20, 1997 at 15:17 bbecker@iconn.net (Bill Becker) wrote:
What has to be done is to get these third-party relay spammers arrested, sued, and their heads hung out on poles for all to see and give pause to others who might think of doing this.
Judges (in the US) would not do that because nobody dies or goes broke as a result of spam. It's merely annoying. But even if US judges were
Nobody dies or goes broke if I play a stereo at full volume outside your bedroom window... Besides, I think we are getting closer and closer to people going broke over spam as it chases potential customers away. It's kind of like having to let people who fart a lot or won't bathe eat in your restaurant (or maybe a closer analogy is people who insist on throwing food around the room, I mean, it's not deadly, merely annoying...)
willing to nail spammers, the spammers would simply move out of their jurisdictions. With strict anti-spam laws in place, what would you do if you were being spammed from a site in Liberia? Same thing you do now.
I'd lobby to have Liberia's net link cut off if they can't deal with it. Networking is a two-way street.
To me, saying this can be solved technically is like saying that a rash of window breakings in your neighborhood can be solved "technically" -- everyone merely has to nail up plywood over all their windows and voila', end of problem.
Well, your options are limited. You can do technical things because that's within your power. But the only laws that will affect spam, are the laws of economics.
Well, thank you for your useless legal advice but I assure you my attorneys feel otherwise and I'm currently well into pursuing having two of them arrested (some do make serious mistakes.) You'd've made a good serf, Becker.
Bill
-- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@world.std.com | http://www.std.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202 | Login: 617-739-WRLD The World | Public Access Internet | Since 1989
participants (4)
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Barry Shein -
Bill Becker -
Jordan Mendelson -
Matthew James Gering