Anyone seeing ping corruption?
Haven't seen this before. This is a Nexus 9K as a testing platform. Getting sporadic complaints about data transfers aborting, but data moves well through the platform. Hop 13 doesn't respond to our 1400 byte ping, hop 12 does a normal response, Google's 14 corrupts the packet or maybe deliberately manipulates it? 1.1.1.1 doesn't do that. Any insights welcome. Thanks, trace 8.8.8.8 traceroute to 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets [deleted 3 hops] 4 154.24.71.85 (154.24.71.85) (AS 7922) 1.199 ms 154.24.32.5 (154.24.32.5) (AS 7922) 1.32 ms 154.24.32.1 (154.24.32.1) (AS 7922) 3.162 ms 5 154.54.81.173 (154.54.81.173) (AS 7922) 1.564 ms 154.54.81.141 (154.54.81.141) (AS 7922) 1.691 ms 154.54.81.221 (154.54.81.221) (AS 7922) 1.616 ms 6 154.54.40.109 (154.54.40.109) (AS 7922) 7.041 ms 154.54.40.105 (154.54.40.105) (AS 7922) 8.035 ms 154.54.40.109 (154.54.40.109) (AS 7922) 7.002 ms 7 154.54.47.218 (154.54.47.218) (AS 7922) 7.183 ms 8.595 ms 7.186 ms 8 154.54.12.18 (154.54.12.18) (AS 7922) 7.55 ms 16.791 ms 16.32 ms 9 * 66.110.96.62 (66.110.96.62) (AS 7922) 16.9 ms 8.202 ms [Label=24004 E=0 TTL=1 S=1] 10 66.110.96.58 (66.110.96.58) (AS 7922) 18.65 ms 15.823 ms 11.381 ms 11 72.14.195.232 (72.14.195.232) (AS 7922) 8.473 ms 8.128 ms 8.241 ms 12 108.170.248.33 (108.170.248.33) (AS 7922) 8.771 ms 108.170.248.1 (108.170.248.1) (AS 7922) 9.004 ms 9.223 ms 13 142.251.60.237 (142.251.60.237) (AS 7922) 8.138 ms 142.251.65.95 (142.251.65.95) (AS 7922) 7.768 ms 142.251.64.7 (142.251.64.7) (AS 7922) 8.171 ms 14 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8) (AS 7922) 8.271 ms 14.179 ms 8.185 ms ping Vrf context to use [default] : Target IP address or Hostname: 8.8.8.8 Repeat count [5] : Packet-size [56] : 1400 Timeout in seconds [2] : Sending interval in seconds [0] : Extended commands [no] : yes Interface : Source address or interface : Data pattern [0xabcd] : Type of service [0] : Set DF bit in IP header [no] : Time to live [255] : Loose/Strict, Record, Timestamp, Verbose [None] : Sweep range of sizes [no] : Sending 5, 1400-bytes ICMP Echos to 8.8.8.8 Timeout is 2 seconds, data pattern is 0xABCD 76 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=0 ttl=111 time=8.732 ms wrong data byte #68 should be 0xcd but was 0x0 37 2d b2 61 af 2f 4 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 cd ab 0 0 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0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 --- 8.8.8.8 ping statistics --- 5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0.00% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max = 8.036/8.692/9.54 ms
On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 17:39, Deepak Jain <deepak@ai.net> wrote:
Google’s 14 corrupts the packet or maybe deliberately manipulates it? 1.1.1.1 doesn’t do that.
8.8.8.8 truncates ICMP's responses, this is well known. Different platforms will react differently to it. lukas@dev:~$ ping 8.8.8.8 -c1 -s1000 PING 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8) 1000(1028) bytes of data. 76 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=1 ttl=116 (truncated) --- 8.8.8.8 ping statistics --- 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 5.657/5.657/5.657/0.000 ms lukas@dev:~$ ping 1.1.1.1 -c1 -s1000 PING 1.1.1.1 (1.1.1.1) 1000(1028) bytes of data. 1008 bytes from 1.1.1.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=58 time=15.8 ms --- 1.1.1.1 ping statistics --- 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 15.893/15.893/15.893/0.000 ms lukas@dev:~$
On 2021-12-09 11:50, Lukas Tribus wrote:
On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 at 17:39, Deepak Jain <deepak@ai.net> wrote:
Google’s 14 corrupts the packet or maybe deliberately manipulates it? 1.1.1.1 doesn’t do that.
8.8.8.8 truncates ICMP's responses, this is well known. Different platforms will react differently to it.
lukas@dev:~$ ping 8.8.8.8 -c1 -s1000 PING 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8) 1000(1028) bytes of data. 76 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=1 ttl=116 (truncated)
--- 8.8.8.8 ping statistics --- 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 5.657/5.657/5.657/0.000 ms lukas@dev:~$ ping 1.1.1.1 -c1 -s1000 PING 1.1.1.1 (1.1.1.1) 1000(1028) bytes of data. 1008 bytes from 1.1.1.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=58 time=15.8 ms
--- 1.1.1.1 ping statistics --- 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 15.893/15.893/15.893/0.000 ms lukas@dev:~$
Hi, Out of curiosity - does anyone know why Google is truncating ICMP responses ? Thanks, - J
On Sun, 19 Dec 2021, J Doe wrote:
--- 8.8.8.8 ping statistics --- 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 5.657/5.657/5.657/0.000 ms lukas@dev:~$ ping 1.1.1.1 -c1 -s1000 PING 1.1.1.1 (1.1.1.1) 1000(1028) bytes of data. 1008 bytes from 1.1.1.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=58 time=15.8 ms
Out of curiosity - does anyone know why Google is truncating ICMP responses ?
Assuming (not confirmed) mitigating old-style DOS attacks. See "ping of death." ICMP packets should be small enough to never require fragmentation. But large enough to contain at least the header of the original packet. When I used to write firewall stuff, there was a great debate about how much data to return in an ICMP error/reply packet. I don't think the debate was ever resolved.
on Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 04:50:00PM -0500, Sean Donelan wrote:
Assuming (not confirmed) mitigating old-style DOS attacks. See "ping of death."
Are there even enough dialup connections and ancient modems left that POD is a thing anyone needs to worry about? I mean, yeah, I enjoyed knocking spammer idiots offline with that but it's been twenty years or more since I had that uniquely weird pleasure. n.b.: alias pod='ping -p 2b2b2b415448300d -c 5' -- hesketh.com/inc. v: +1(919)834-2552 f: +1(919)834-2553 w: http://hesketh.com/ Internet security and antispam hostname intelligence: http://enemieslist.com/
On Mon, 20 Dec 2021, Steven Champeon wrote:
on Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 04:50:00PM -0500, Sean Donelan wrote:
Assuming (not confirmed) mitigating old-style DOS attacks. See "ping of death."
Are there even enough dialup connections and ancient modems left that POD is a thing anyone needs to worry about?
Likely not. But ICMP is spoofable, and anyone operating extremely large attack bounce points, should try to mitigate the attack potential. Limiting ICMP responses, DNS answers, reducing SYN retries, gratuitous firewall RSTs, etc, etc. But I'm just guessing why Google does it. I don't know, and unless a googler is willing to share; we won't ever know. Sometimes I disagree with their reasons, but google usually has a reason. Oh, and also every network operator should implement source address validation (beating the dead horse, for the nanog mail topic moderators).
On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 22:45:06 +0000, Steven Champeon said:
Are there even enough dialup connections and ancient modems left that POD is a thing anyone needs to worry about?
It wasn't just dialup and modems. The Ping of Death had to do with sending a packet that was already 64K in size, that would require an ICMP response that would try to include the entire packet - corrupting the memory following the buffer the response was built in. Lots of ethernet-connected Windows systems got BSOD'd that way. Having said that, I'm sure there's still unpatched systems out there. Probably a few that are *still* unpatched against the 1990s IPV4 version, but a lot more likely for the 2013 and 2020 IPv6 versions against Microsoft systems.
Valdis Klētnieks wrote:
Are there even enough dialup connections and ancient modems left that POD is a thing anyone needs to worry about?
It wasn't just dialup and modems. The Ping of Death had to do with sending a packet that was already 64K in size, that would require an ICMP response that would try to include the entire packet - corrupting the memory following the buffer the response was built in. Lots of ethernet-connected Windows systems got BSOD'd that way.
No, an ICMP echo reply does not include the entire request packets but can be constructed by rewriting several fields of the request without needing extra memory. But, if a request packet size is just 64K or a little larger than that, which is a invalid packet after reassembly, its fragments may be sent as, with improper check by receivers, valid fragments, reassembly of which will cause buffer overflow. Another possibility of DOS by sending large ICMP echo requests should be that they require tens of fragmentation reassembly, which consumes a lot of resource of receivers especially when some fragments are missed (maybe intentionally by senders) because fragmentation reassembly buffers won't be released unless all the fragments are received and reassembled. Masataka Ohta
Bjorn Mork wrote:
No, an ICMP echo reply does not include the entire request packets
RFC792: The data received in the echo message must be returned in the echo reply message.
RFC792: Echo or Echo Reply Message 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Type | Code | Checksum | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Identifier | Sequence Number | +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ | Data ... +-+-+-+-+- The data excludes IP and ICMP header and is not "the entire request packets". Once an echo request packet is reassembled, which may cause buffer overflow with poor implementations, you only have to rewrite type, checksum and IP header to construct echo reply without copying data, which is what BSD kernel is doing. Masataka Ohta
On Sun, 19 Dec 2021, J Doe wrote:
8.8.8.8 truncates ICMP's responses, this is well known. Different platforms will react differently to it.
lukas@dev:~$ ping 8.8.8.8 -c1 -s1000 PING 8.8.8.8 (8.8.8.8) 1000(1028) bytes of data. 76 bytes from 8.8.8.8: icmp_seq=1 ttl=116 (truncated)
--- 8.8.8.8 ping statistics --- 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 5.657/5.657/5.657/0.000 ms lukas@dev:~$ ping 1.1.1.1 -c1 -s1000 PING 1.1.1.1 (1.1.1.1) 1000(1028) bytes of data. 1008 bytes from 1.1.1.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=58 time=15.8 ms
--- 1.1.1.1 ping statistics --- 1 packets transmitted, 1 received, 0% packet loss, time 0ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 15.893/15.893/15.893/0.000 ms lukas@dev:~$
Hi,
Out of curiosity - does anyone know why Google is truncating ICMP responses ?
My guess would be to reduce "garbage traffic bandwidth". They're running an open resolver...not a lighthouse. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route StackPath, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
On Tue, 21 Dec 2021, Mark Tinka wrote:
On 12/21/21 09:11, Hank Nussbacher wrote:
As Google has stated in many forums and I quote: "Google Public DNS is a Domain Name System service, not an ICMP network testing service."
:-)... can't argue with that.
In the 90's and early 2000's, it was:
ping -t yahoo.com
And SRI-NIC.ARPA see https://archive.nanog.org/mailinglist/mailarchives/old_archive/2003-10/msg00...
On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 at 08:11, Hank Nussbacher <hank@interall.co.il> wrote:
Out of curiosity - does anyone know why Google is truncating ICMP responses ?
As Google has stated in many forums and I quote: "Google Public DNS is a Domain Name System service, not an ICMP network testing service."
The core issue is that many watchdogs implemented in all kinds of devices use ICMP for health checking (and just one host), as opposed to DNS or HTTP services of multiple hosts. Those users have to point their watchdogs somewhere, and "ping.crappy-iot-vendor.com" just sounds less reliable (and probably is), then one of those quad8. quad1 or quad9 services. It's obvious that it's not a DNS Servers job to respond to ICMP requests, and under DoS they'd probably rate-limit it. I think Google choice makes sense, at least it does not allow 1:1 reflection at big sizes. Nobody is interested in running reliable anycast ICMP responders on the internet, after all, no useful data can be collected with it. Device vendors will keep shipping code with watchdogs that can only ping a single host, so users will keep putting DNS servers in there. Lukas
participants (11)
-
Bjørn Mork -
Deepak Jain -
Hank Nussbacher -
J Doe -
Jon Lewis -
Lukas Tribus -
Mark Tinka -
Masataka Ohta -
Sean Donelan -
Steven Champeon -
Valdis Klētnieks