Good points, some variables are dependant on the network infrastructure of the wireless provider. Localy, the main 2 providers have a "copper/fiber independent" networks. Gino A. Villarini gav@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -----Original Message----- From: Deepak Jain [mailto:deepak@ai.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:36 PM To: Gino Villarini; Jorge Amodio; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area I don't mean to jump in here and state the obvious, but wireless links are not a panacea. At least a few folks have presented that fiber grooming has affected their *region*. It's not difficult to imagine that wherever the "head" link side (or agg point) of these regional wireless networks is... probably coincides with a fiber network or other telecom POP. You are just moving where your last mile vulnerabilities are (slightly.. as you are picking up multiple power vulnerabilities, Line of Sight, and other things along the way). In the example of a tornado or other weather disturbance, wireless links are subject to fade just as much as any kind of aerial wired asset. Deepak Jain AiNET
-----Original Message----- From: Gino Villarini [mailto:gav@aeronetpr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:12 PM To: Jorge Amodio; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area
Here in my area most of business outfits that require maximum availability of Internet or WAN conenctions have implemented dual connections from dual providers, most with a fiber/copper main and a fixed wireless backup. This trend goes from banks to Mcdonalds
Gino A. Villarini gav@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145
-----Original Message----- From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamodio@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:21 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Fiber cut in SF area
"Earth is a single point of failure."
On top of that, one basic principle of telecommunications:
No matter how much diversity and path redundancy, tons of concrete or titanium sealed fiber vaults you have, in the data exchange between points A and B there will be always two single points of failure: A and B.
IMHO, this thread is getting way off topic, boring and useless.
Fiber cut is over, there will be many more, move on ...
Cheers Jorge
Wireless RF links have their drawbacks: 1. Current GHz Frequency technology places upper limit of 1 Gbps on point-to-point links, and distance at 1 Gbps is limited. Commercial GiGE radios are just now appearing, replacing 100 Mbps Ethernet and oc3 SONET radios. Telco use of wireless links to backup 10/40 GiGE fiber trunks in metropolitan areas is not scalable. 2. Wireless technology contains hardware plethora of nuts, bolts, cables, fasteners, custom-tuned crystals, dishes, passive/active reflectors, in addition to layer 1 tuning best performed by EE specializing in RF. 3. Relative to fiber optic technologies, there is a very small circle of RF companies that can install, tune, and maintain wireless links correctly and reliably. 4. Tower-climbing/working skills are essential. But, what is the state of diverse telco fiber paths such that this fiber cut was not transparent to users in such a key US metropolitan area? -----Original Message----- From: Gino Villarini [mailto:gav@aeronetpr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 1:42 PM To: Deepak Jain; Jorge Amodio; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area Good points, some variables are dependant on the network infrastructure of the wireless provider. Localy, the main 2 providers have a "copper/fiber independent" networks. Gino A. Villarini gav@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -----Original Message----- From: Deepak Jain [mailto:deepak@ai.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:36 PM To: Gino Villarini; Jorge Amodio; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area I don't mean to jump in here and state the obvious, but wireless links are not a panacea. At least a few folks have presented that fiber grooming has affected their *region*. It's not difficult to imagine that wherever the "head" link side (or agg point) of these regional wireless networks is... probably coincides with a fiber network or other telecom POP. You are just moving where your last mile vulnerabilities are (slightly.. as you are picking up multiple power vulnerabilities, Line of Sight, and other things along the way). In the example of a tornado or other weather disturbance, wireless links are subject to fade just as much as any kind of aerial wired asset. Deepak Jain AiNET
-----Original Message----- From: Gino Villarini [mailto:gav@aeronetpr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 4:12 PM To: Jorge Amodio; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Fiber cut in SF area
Here in my area most of business outfits that require maximum availability of Internet or WAN conenctions have implemented dual connections from dual providers, most with a fiber/copper main and a fixed wireless backup. This trend goes from banks to Mcdonalds
Gino A. Villarini gav@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145
-----Original Message----- From: Jorge Amodio [mailto:jmamodio@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2009 11:21 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Fiber cut in SF area
"Earth is a single point of failure."
On top of that, one basic principle of telecommunications:
No matter how much diversity and path redundancy, tons of concrete or titanium sealed fiber vaults you have, in the data exchange between points A and B there will be always two single points of failure: A and B.
IMHO, this thread is getting way off topic, boring and useless.
Fiber cut is over, there will be many more, move on ...
Cheers Jorge
Gino Villarini wrote:
Good points, some variables are dependant on the network infrastructure of the wireless provider. Localy, the main 2 providers have a "copper/fiber independent" networks.
I'm pretty sure the WISPs in the Santa Cruz and Gilroy/Morgan Hill areas were all also taken offline due to the fiber cut. (Roy, can you verify, for south county?) Anyone in those areas who relied on a WISP as a backup to their fiber/copper link found that their "redundant" system wasn't really redundant after all. You may want to check (verify) how your 2 main providers handle their backhaul. jc
JC Dill wrote:
Gino Villarini wrote:
Good points, some variables are dependant on the network infrastructure of the wireless provider. Localy, the main 2 providers have a "copper/fiber independent" networks.
I'm pretty sure the WISPs in the Santa Cruz and Gilroy/Morgan Hill areas were all also taken offline due to the fiber cut. (Roy, can you verify, for south county?) Anyone in those areas who relied on a WISP as a backup to their fiber/copper link found that their "redundant" system wasn't really redundant after all.
You may want to check (verify) how your 2 main providers handle their backhaul.
jc
It based on where the WISP fiber feed was located but in general they were all down. There were some special edge cases that stayed up fed from distant mountain tops. It didn't seem to matter who your upstream ISP was, they were all gone.
Roy wrote:
JC Dill wrote:
I'm pretty sure the WISPs in the Santa Cruz and Gilroy/Morgan Hill areas were all also taken offline due to the fiber cut. (Roy, can you verify, for south county?) Anyone in those areas who relied on a WISP as a backup to their fiber/copper link found that their "redundant" system wasn't really redundant after all.
It based on where the WISP fiber feed was located but in general they were all down. There were some special edge cases that stayed up fed from distant mountain tops.
It didn't seem to matter who your upstream ISP was, they were all gone.
The little residential wireless provider I use (http://surfnetc.com/) in Santa Cruz county stayed up the whole time. I was surprised. (Looks like their uplink is via pnap (Internap).) -- Tony Rall
participants (5)
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Gino Villarini -
Holmes,David A -
JC Dill -
Roy -
Tony Rall