Re: Digex and Akamai are raping the ARIN whois database
In article <10184.15415.25258@avi.netaxs.com> you wrote: : Nothing like the smell of spam in the morning - coming to you through the : "benevolent" acts of Akamai and Digex - sent to POC handles blatantly stolen : from ARIN's whois database. : Yo, Digex: this just reminds me how much your "sales team" sucked the last : time around, when there was a DS3 contract up for grabs on an RFP. : This spam certainly cuts you out of any future consideration for a while: : You'll find yourself in good company with Savvis, I am sure. Very sorry this happened. Marketing purchased a 'trial version' of a list that apparently had ARIN-gleanings. Use of that list has been suspended with all partners, and we are working on ways to make sure that we can 'pattern match' any such similar crud from future lists. This is the first of the lists that has been a problem (though we have in the past had one or two salespeople who were quickly unconfused on individual solicitations), and we intend to make sure it won't happen again. If anyone has any heuristics for ensuring that lists don't have automated new-domain or SWIP gleanings, I'd appreciate them; for now we'll just search for hostmaster@, ipspace@, and other role-looking accounts. Sorry, Avi (speaking as Chief Network Architect, Akamai)
How 'bout only sending marketing emails to email address that specifically REQUEST to receive them? Sending marketing email to addresses on any type of "purchased" list is, by nature, unsolicited. I'm sure it's bulk. Which makes it look awfully pink and meaty to me. -C On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Avi Freedman wrote:
In article <10184.15415.25258@avi.netaxs.com> you wrote:
: Nothing like the smell of spam in the morning - coming to you through the : "benevolent" acts of Akamai and Digex - sent to POC handles blatantly stolen : from ARIN's whois database.
: Yo, Digex: this just reminds me how much your "sales team" sucked the last : time around, when there was a DS3 contract up for grabs on an RFP. : This spam certainly cuts you out of any future consideration for a while: : You'll find yourself in good company with Savvis, I am sure.
Very sorry this happened. Marketing purchased a 'trial version' of a list that apparently had ARIN-gleanings. Use of that list has been suspended with all partners, and we are working on ways to make sure that we can 'pattern match' any such similar crud from future lists. This is the first of the lists that has been a problem (though we have in the past had one or two salespeople who were quickly unconfused on individual solicitations), and we intend to make sure it won't happen again.
If anyone has any heuristics for ensuring that lists don't have automated new-domain or SWIP gleanings, I'd appreciate them; for now we'll just search for hostmaster@, ipspace@, and other role-looking accounts.
Sorry,
Avi (speaking as Chief Network Architect, Akamai)
Marketing has had luck with opt-in lists in the past year or so. This is the first time there's been a problem with list-based e-mail. Here, they tried a sampling of the list as a trial and had problems. So then there's a negotiation internally, since opt-in-based e-mailings have worked in the past. The reasonable compromise was made to be more vigilant and shut the practice off if there was another problem. The proper emphasis on the affect spam has on our network partners and customers has been reemphasized with multiple clue-by-fours, however, and we're involved in setting up a sanity filter for anything that would happen going forward with purchased lists. Avi
How 'bout only sending marketing emails to email address that specifically REQUEST to receive them?
Sending marketing email to addresses on any type of "purchased" list is, by nature, unsolicited. I'm sure it's bulk. Which makes it look awfully pink and meaty to me.
-C
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Avi Freedman wrote:
In article <10184.15415.25258@avi.netaxs.com> you wrote:
: Nothing like the smell of spam in the morning - coming to you through the : "benevolent" acts of Akamai and Digex - sent to POC handles blatantly stolen : from ARIN's whois database.
: Yo, Digex: this just reminds me how much your "sales team" sucked the last : time around, when there was a DS3 contract up for grabs on an RFP. : This spam certainly cuts you out of any future consideration for a while: : You'll find yourself in good company with Savvis, I am sure.
Very sorry this happened. Marketing purchased a 'trial version' of a list that apparently had ARIN-gleanings. Use of that list has been suspended with all partners, and we are working on ways to make sure that we can 'pattern match' any such similar crud from future lists. This is the first of the lists that has been a problem (though we have in the past had one or two salespeople who were quickly unconfused on individual solicitations), and we intend to make sure it won't happen again.
If anyone has any heuristics for ensuring that lists don't have automated new-domain or SWIP gleanings, I'd appreciate them; for now we'll just search for hostmaster@, ipspace@, and other role-looking accounts.
Sorry,
Avi (speaking as Chief Network Architect, Akamai)
Yo Avi! On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Avi Freedman wrote:
Marketing has had luck with opt-in lists in the past year or so. This is the first time there's been a problem with list-based e-mail.
Not true, I have gotten some of these in the past from Akamai and complained. This is just the first time Akamai has been so publicly flamed.... RGDS GARY --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Blvd, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676
We've whacked a few (< 5 that I know of, 100% kill rate) salespeople who've taken it on themselves to mail hostmaster@ in the past. I expect we'll always have that as an issue, training aside. If there have been problems or are ever problems with something that looks like spam from Akamai OR an Akamai partner, but for Akamai, I'd encourage anyone to let me know. The firm commitment is that if there have been problems in the past, or are problems in the future, with opt-in lists, that all use will stop and thus the associated headcount slots will become vacant in marketing... Avi
Yo Avi!
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Avi Freedman wrote:
Marketing has had luck with opt-in lists in the past year or so. This is the first time there's been a problem with list-based e-mail.
Not true, I have gotten some of these in the past from Akamai and complained. This is just the first time Akamai has been so publicly flamed....
RGDS GARY --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Blvd, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676
Avi, I don't think you're getting the fact that the very act of purchasing a mailing list inherently means that there's no way that the addresses on that list can be "opt-in". If they had opted in to receiving email from you, you'd have their email addresses already, and would have no need to purchase them. Can you disclose who the list was purchased from? You're taking a big, big chance when you purchase so-called "opt-in" mailing lists, as this episode proves. One fudged email address on that list could prove very embarrassing. Again, as this episode proves. -Chris
If there have been problems or are ever problems with something that looks like spam from Akamai OR an Akamai partner, but for Akamai, I'd encourage anyone to let me know. The firm commitment is that if there have been problems in the past, or are problems in the future, with opt-in lists, that all use will stop and thus the associated headcount slots will become vacant in marketing...
Avi
Yo Avi!
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Avi Freedman wrote:
Marketing has had luck with opt-in lists in the past year or so. This is the first time there's been a problem with list-based e-mail.
Not true, I have gotten some of these in the past from Akamai and complained. This is just the first time Akamai has been so publicly flamed....
RGDS GARY --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Blvd, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Avi Freedman wrote:
We've whacked a few (< 5 that I know of, 100% kill rate) salespeople who've taken it on themselves to mail hostmaster@ in the past. I expect we'll always have that as an issue, training aside.
Avi, In my last message I said good things about you. Please don't make me take them back. You can't purchase an opt-in list. Period. -- JustThe.net LLC - Steve "Web Dude" Sobol, CTO - sjsobol@JustThe.net Donate a portion of your monthly ISP bill to your favorite charity or non-profit organization! E-mail me for details.
Once upon a time, Steven J. Sobol <sjsobol@NorthShoreTechnologies.net> said:
You can't purchase an opt-in list. Period.
You've never left checked the "we may share your address with our partners" box on a trade rag application (with an address just for those kind of things)? There _are_ legitimate opt-in lists. Now, your address may not be on any of them, but that is a different story. -- Chris Adams <cmadams@hiwaay.net> Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Chris Woodfield wrote:
Sending marketing email to addresses on any type of "purchased" list is, by nature, unsolicited. I'm sure it's bulk. Which makes it look awfully pink and meaty to me.
Maybe akamai's upstreams can enforce their anti-spam TOS. (and maybe hell will freeze over :-) At the very least, the marketdroid who made the brilliant decision to 1) purchase a list, and 2) spam with it, should be dismissed. -Dan -- [-] Omae no subete no kichi wa ore no mono da. [-]
If anyone has any heuristics for ensuring that lists don't have automated new-domain or SWIP gleanings, I'd appreciate them; for now we'll just search for hostmaster@, ipspace@, and other role-looking accounts.
a heuristic that i would use would be: please don't purchase "contact" lists from people. please don't hire marketing folks who think that this is a good idea. sales the old-fashioned way still works, you know. learn about people in your market, get to know what they want, contact them individually when you think you can make a sale. since when did blind email campaigns to lists of people whose _origin you can't even determine_ become a reasonable-sounding sales technique? this isn't postcard-in-the-mailbox stuff, guys. and the people buying it aren't likely to impulse-buy, anyhow. jeez. s.
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Avi Freedman wrote:
Very sorry this happened. Marketing purchased a 'trial version' of a list that apparently had ARIN-gleanings. Use of that list has been suspended with all partners, and we are working on ways to make sure that we can 'pattern match' any such similar crud from future lists. This is the first of the lists that has been a problem (though we have in the past had one or two salespeople who were quickly unconfused on individual solicitations), and we intend to make sure it won't happen again.
If anyone has any heuristics for ensuring that lists don't have automated new-domain or SWIP gleanings, I'd appreciate them; for now we'll just search for hostmaster@, ipspace@, and other role-looking accounts.
We should probably take this off-list but I want to make one important point. By definition, you can't buy an opt-in list. If you buy it, and use it, you're spamming. You've always seemed to me to be an intelligent fellow, and you should be able to figure out why my assertion is, in fact, true. If you're not sure, I'll be happy to impart additional clue in your direction but it will be offlist, since this is NANOG and not SPAM-L. And if you need any tools with which to pass on said clue to Marketing, feel free to accept my offer of help (but again, I think you're a pretty smart guy and you should be able to thwack Marketing a couple times with the cluebat on your own). Hope this helps; have a great day, and good luck educating The Droids. -- JustThe.net LLC - Steve "Web Dude" Sobol, CTO - sjsobol@JustThe.net Donate a portion of your monthly ISP bill to your favorite charity or non-profit organization! E-mail me for details.
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Steven J. Sobol wrote:
We should probably take this off-list but I want to make one important point.
By definition, you can't buy an opt-in list. If you buy it, and use it, you're spamming.
Bull. If I as an individual give permission for an organization I have some sort of relationship with to have mail sent to me by third parties, that's my perogative. What you are in fact saying is that I'm not allowed to give that permission. The problem is that the sleaze factor that permeates the space.
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Patrick Greenwell wrote:
Bull. If I as an individual give permission for an organization I have some sort of relationship with to have mail sent to me by third parties, that's my perogative. What you are in fact saying is that I'm not allowed to give that permission.
The problem is that the sleaze factor that permeates the space.
That's not the only problem. People sign other people up for those lists as a revenge tactic; consequently, those lists are worse than worthless if they don't include the IP & timestamp of when that person signed up (and are still hazardous to use even with that info). One is far, far better off collecting addresses through clear, legitimate opt-in methods... -- Bob <melange@yip.org> | Yes. I know. That is, indeed, *not* mayonnaise.
One more post to this thread On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Bob K wrote:
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Patrick Greenwell wrote:
Bull. If I as an individual give permission for an organization I have some sort of relationship with to have mail sent to me by third parties, that's my perogative. What you are in fact saying is that I'm not allowed to give that permission.
The problem is that the sleaze factor that permeates the space.
That's not the only problem. People sign other people up for those lists as a revenge tactic; consequently, those lists are worse than worthless if they don't include the IP & timestamp of when that person signed up (and are still hazardous to use even with that info). One is far, far better off collecting addresses through clear, legitimate opt-in methods...
Yes. That was, more or less, the point I was making, though I did a very BAD job of making it. More to the point - plenty of marketers have twisted the meaning of OPT-IN. Wide misuse of that phrase led me to say what I said, but I didn't take into account the fact many people subsequently reminded me of: it *is* common to have a merchant ask if it's ok to give your contact info to other companies. So, I misspoke. All of the people who took me to task were correct. I'll have to be a little more careful of what I say in the future. -- JustThe.net LLC - Steve "Web Dude" Sobol, CTO - sjsobol@JustThe.net Donate a portion of your monthly ISP bill to your favorite charity or non-profit organization! E-mail me for details.
Point granted. But in practice, just about every list of this type somehow manages to be corrupted by more than a few stray addresses... -C On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Patrick Greenwell wrote:
On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Steven J. Sobol wrote:
We should probably take this off-list but I want to make one important point.
By definition, you can't buy an opt-in list. If you buy it, and use it, you're spamming.
Bull. If I as an individual give permission for an organization I have some sort of relationship with to have mail sent to me by third parties, that's my perogative. What you are in fact saying is that I'm not allowed to give that permission.
The problem is that the sleaze factor that permeates the space.
We should probably take this off-list but I want to make one important point. By definition, you can't buy an opt-in list. If you buy it, and use it, you're spamming. I would argue the point there - not that I do *any* marketing, but I know a few online services (bigfoot, a few other sites) where one of the conditions of usage is that you accept advertising material from them and their "chosen
partners" ie anyone they can sell advertising space to. Such lists could be considered Opt In (as each recipient has made a decision to accept UCM in return for services) but each should be clearly marked to show it *is* part of that program, lest it be mistaken for true UCM (which would also be a good way to distinguish such lists).
participants (10)
-
Avi Freedman -
Bob K -
Chris Adams -
Chris Woodfield -
Dan Hollis -
David Howe -
Gary E. Miller -
Patrick Greenwell -
steve uurtamo -
Steven J. Sobol