RE: home router battery backup
In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home. If we are providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage. It does not power their router, etc. 99% of the customers do not install a UPS for their router, etc. We try to explain that to customers, but we still get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is out. -----Original Message----- From: "Scott T Anderson via NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 12:35pm To: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: home router battery backup Hi NANOG mailing list, I am a graduate student, currently conducting research on how power outages affect home Internet users. I know that the FCC has a regulation since 2015 (47 CFR Section 9.20) requiring ISPs to provide an option to voice customers to purchase a battery backup for emergency voice services during power outages. As this is only an option and only applies to customers who subscribe to voice services, I was wondering if anyone had any insights on the prevalence of battery backup for home modem/routers? I.e., what percentage of home users actually install a battery backup in their home modem/router or use an external UPS? Thanks. Scott Reference for 47 CFR Section 9.20: [ https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-... ]( https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-9/subpart-... )
On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home. If we are providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage. It does not power their router, etc. 99% of the customers do not install a UPS for their router, etc. We try to explain that to customers, but we still get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is out.
So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it uses IP for voice. Mike
Yes. In our scenario the ONT is basically an ethernet bridge and provides a SIP end-point for calls. There are models that have the router built-into them as well, but we've chosen not to use them at this point. The battery we install is designed to run the voice portion for ~ 8 hours (customers are offered a longer run-time battery for an additional fee). There's some sensor wires from the ONT to the UPS so that we know when power is out, the battery is low or needs to be replaced, etc. It also tells the ONT to turn off ethernet services when the power is out to preserve battery for the phone portion. Though that behavior can be changed in software. -----Original Message----- From: "Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:48pm To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: home router battery backup On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote: In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home. If we are providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage. It does not power their router, etc. 99% of the customers do not install a UPS for their router, etc. We try to explain that to customers, but we still get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is out. So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it uses IP for voice. Mike
Does anyone have any insight as to the OS and overall capabilities of various ONT's? Traffic shaping/QoS and statistics? On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:01 PM Shawn L via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Yes. In our scenario the ONT is basically an ethernet bridge and provides a SIP end-point for calls. There are models that have the router built-into them as well, but we've chosen not to use them at this point.
The battery we install is designed to run the voice portion for ~ 8 hours (customers are offered a longer run-time battery for an additional fee). There's some sensor wires from the ONT to the UPS so that we know when power is out, the battery is low or needs to be replaced, etc. It also tells the ONT to turn off ethernet services when the power is out to preserve battery for the phone portion. Though that behavior can be changed in software.
-----Original Message----- From: "Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:48pm To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: home router battery backup
On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home. If we are providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage. It does not power their router, etc. 99% of the customers do not install a UPS for their router, etc. We try to explain that to customers, but we still get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is out.
So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it uses IP for voice.
Mike
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
That's usually an OMCI control thing on the OLT (traffic shaping, qos). Do you have a specific question in mind? Josh Luthman 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 3:04 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
Does anyone have any insight as to the OS and overall capabilities of various ONT's? Traffic shaping/QoS and statistics?
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:01 PM Shawn L via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Yes. In our scenario the ONT is basically an ethernet bridge and
provides a SIP end-point for calls. There are models that have the router built-into them as well, but we've chosen not to use them at this point.
The battery we install is designed to run the voice portion for ~ 8
hours (customers are offered a longer run-time battery for an additional fee). There's some sensor wires from the ONT to the UPS so that we know when power is out, the battery is low or needs to be replaced, etc. It also tells the ONT to turn off ethernet services when the power is out to preserve battery for the phone portion. Though that behavior can be changed in software.
-----Original Message----- From: "Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:48pm To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: home router battery backup
On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home. If we are
providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage. It does not power their router, etc. 99% of the customers do not install a UPS for their router, etc. We try to explain that to customers, but we still get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is out.
So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it
uses IP for voice.
Mike
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:27 PM Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
That's usually an OMCI control thing on the OLT (traffic shaping, qos). Do you have a specific question in mind?
My dream, of course, is fq_codel (nowadays, sch_cake) on every potential bottleneck link. FQ for essentially zero latency for sparse packets, AQM for achieving far shorter queue lengths. I'd settle for an ONT that applied ethernet pause frames sanely so a smarter router upstream did the right things. There's a ton of smarter routers nowadays. Any ONT's that use pause frames and have very small onboard buffers? Been working on getting mikrotik up to speed on this incredibly long thread over here; https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179307
Josh Luthman 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 3:04 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
Does anyone have any insight as to the OS and overall capabilities of various ONT's? Traffic shaping/QoS and statistics?
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:01 PM Shawn L via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Yes. In our scenario the ONT is basically an ethernet bridge and provides a SIP end-point for calls. There are models that have the router built-into them as well, but we've chosen not to use them at this point.
The battery we install is designed to run the voice portion for ~ 8 hours (customers are offered a longer run-time battery for an additional fee). There's some sensor wires from the ONT to the UPS so that we know when power is out, the battery is low or needs to be replaced, etc. It also tells the ONT to turn off ethernet services when the power is out to preserve battery for the phone portion. Though that behavior can be changed in software.
-----Original Message----- From: "Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:48pm To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: home router battery backup
On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home. If we are providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage. It does not power their router, etc. 99% of the customers do not install a UPS for their router, etc. We try to explain that to customers, but we still get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is out.
So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it uses IP for voice.
Mike
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
I would have to imagine any QOS/traffic shaping is done in the OMCI and hence would probably be in the GPON spec, g.984. I would look there. Just guessing it would hold true with XG/s/PON, NGPON, etc. Josh Luthman 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 3:33 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:27 PM Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
That's usually an OMCI control thing on the OLT (traffic shaping, qos).
Do you have a specific question in mind?
My dream, of course, is fq_codel (nowadays, sch_cake) on every potential bottleneck link. FQ for essentially zero latency for sparse packets, AQM for achieving far shorter queue lengths.
I'd settle for an ONT that applied ethernet pause frames sanely so a smarter router upstream did the right things. There's a ton of smarter routers nowadays. Any ONT's that use pause frames and have very small onboard buffers?
Been working on getting mikrotik up to speed on this incredibly long thread over here; https://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=179307
Josh Luthman 24/7 Help Desk: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 3:04 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
Does anyone have any insight as to the OS and overall capabilities of various ONT's? Traffic shaping/QoS and statistics?
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 12:01 PM Shawn L via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org>
Yes. In our scenario the ONT is basically an ethernet bridge and
The battery we install is designed to run the voice portion for ~ 8
hours (customers are offered a longer run-time battery for an additional fee). There's some sensor wires from the ONT to the UPS so that we know when power is out, the battery is low or needs to be replaced, etc. It also tells the ONT to turn off ethernet services when the power is out to
-----Original Message----- From: "Michael Thomas" <mike@mtcc.com> Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2022 2:48pm To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: home router battery backup
On 1/12/22 10:54 AM, Shawn L via NANOG wrote:
In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home. If we
are providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we
wrote: provides a SIP end-point for calls. There are models that have the router built-into them as well, but we've chosen not to use them at this point. preserve battery for the phone portion. Though that behavior can be changed in software. maintain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage. It does not power their router, etc. 99% of the customers do not install a UPS for their router, etc. We try to explain that to customers, but we still get calls that they can't get on the Internet when their power is out.
So your voice is part of the modem which isn't a router? I assume it
uses IP for voice.
Mike
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org
Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
On 1/12/22 4:15 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
I would have to imagine any QOS/traffic shaping is done in the OMCI and hence would probably be in the GPON spec, g.984. I would look there.
Just guessing it would hold true with XG/s/PON, NGPON, etc.
The way at least my gear (Adtran) works is that you configure shaping/policing as part of the provisioned service. That information is communicated to the ONTs via the OMCI. AFAIK, the ONT enforces admission control on the upstream (and coordinates for timeslot assignments with the OLT since upstream oversubscription is supported and common), and the OLT enforces downstream egress control. You can configure whether you want rate control to be based on hard policers (instantaneous drop once CIR+CBS+EIR+EBS is exceeded) or whether you want it to "shape" the traffic by delaying things. The latter is usually more user-friendly and certainly easier to set up, but it can result in bufferbloat, and they don't provide very friendly knobs to tune the maximum queue length. I haven't heard any real complaints from folks. DSLReports gives me like a C for bufferbloat but doesn't really make it clear why. The queue is, at most, a few ms in depth. You can tell it to honor 802.1p CoS, IP ToS, or IP DSCP in various ways and map them to separate queues with separate policers/shapers and WRR priority. This is semi-automated if you are doing voice/video via their provisioning environment. YMMV on other vendors' gear.
On Wed, Jan 12, 2022 at 10:08 PM Brandon Martin <lists.nanog@monmotha.net> wrote:
On 1/12/22 4:15 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:
I would have to imagine any QOS/traffic shaping is done in the OMCI and hence would probably be in the GPON spec, g.984. I would look there.
Just guessing it would hold true with XG/s/PON, NGPON, etc.
The way at least my gear (Adtran) works is that you configure shaping/policing as part of the provisioned service. That information is communicated to the ONTs via the OMCI.
AFAIK, the ONT enforces admission control on the upstream (and coordinates for timeslot assignments with the OLT since upstream oversubscription is supported and common), and the OLT enforces downstream egress control.
You can configure whether you want rate control to be based on hard policers (instantaneous drop once CIR+CBS+EIR+EBS is exceeded) or whether you want it to "shape" the traffic by delaying things. The latter is usually more user-friendly and certainly easier to set up, but it can result in bufferbloat, and they don't provide very friendly knobs to tune the maximum queue length. I haven't heard any real complaints from folks. DSLReports gives me like a C for bufferbloat but doesn't really make it clear why. The queue is, at most, a few ms in depth.
The nice thing about the Codel, Cobalt, and PIE aqms is they work beautifully with hardware flow control so long as the interval of the pause is closely tied to the uplink's chances to transmit. I've perpetually shown off how well fq_codel worked with the very first (and ancient) dslmodem we tried that had minimal buffering in nearly every preso I did... (and have ranted that "modern" ones required shaping instead and also pointed at how to do it hw flow control very wrong as all the ethernet over powerline devices did) so it would be cool if you could put fq_codel or cake in front of your ONT and see if you have pause frames negotiated on your ethernet interface. Anyway; What I've been observing, however, in the fiber data from dslreports, is a disturbing growth of roughly 250ms of uplink buffering in 100Mbit fiber services: https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/bufferbloat?up=1 (If you look at this data over time its otherwise quite pleasing to see cable's massive improvements at lower tiers of service)
You can tell it to honor 802.1p CoS, IP ToS, or IP DSCP in various ways and map them to separate queues with separate policers/shapers and WRR priority. This is semi-automated if you are doing voice/video via their provisioning environment.
YMMV on other vendors' gear.
Thx. I started a thread over on the cerowrt-devel mailing list on this, it was cool to find several linux based SFPs worth playing with, Finding a set of "common" ONTs worth configuring in a way more suited for an fq_codel'd router (and especially not using policing) is on my mind. -- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
On 14/1/22 2:45 am, Dave Taht wrote:
Thx. I started a thread over on the cerowrt-devel mailing list on this, it was cool to find several linux based SFPs worth playing with, Finding a set of "common" ONTs worth configuring in a way more suited for an fq_codel'd router (and especially not using policing) is on my mind.
On that, someone finally wrote up a little thing: https://blog.benjojo.co.uk/post/smart-sfp-linux-inside I'm still quite tempted to order a few and play myself.
It appears that Shawn L via NANOG <shawnl@up.net> said:
In $dayjob I work for a telco that deploys fiber to the home. If we are providing voice services over fiber a battery backup is installed (we main tain) that powers the customer's phone in the event of a power outage.
I have fiber service from my local RLEC. The modem comes with a 12V battery UPS which looks big enough to keep the phone and internet on for several days. But as you say, it's the modem, not the router. If the power went out and the UPS I have for my other equipment ran down, which would take about half an hour, I suppose I could run an ethernet cable from my laptop to the modem. R's, John
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Shawn L