No doubt I'll get flamed to hell by some folks for this(but this wouldn't be Nanog without it), however if this character is doing what is described below you might want to make sure it isn't happening to you and your users at this very moment, moreso since 9netave, the organization hosting the site is apparently refusing to take action to stop a clear case of credit fraud. Value Net, http://www.value.net is an ISP located in Walnut Creek, California, which I have an account with. It appears that a scam artist decided to set up http://www.valuehelp.net, which copies the site design, logos, etc. and pops up with a javascript alert saying "This is a secure Value Net server," and has a place to enter account info & credit card. They then proceeded to send email to Value Net customers telling them that they needed to go there and re-enter their information, including credit card info. According to information provided to me, 9netave is in no uncertain terms is refusing to take down the site without a court order. Beware... /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Patrick Greenwell "This is our time. It will not come again." \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 07:52:32PM -0700, Patrick Greenwell wrote:
According to information provided to me, 9netave is in no uncertain terms is refusing to take down the site without a court order.
Beware...
Why beware ? While this is probably off-topic, I would like to point out some of the more heartless realities of living in a litigious society, in particular like that of the US. If the service provider removed the site based on some complaints then they would be opening themselves up for claims of restricting trade, suppression of the rights of the customers etc. I am not in the US, nor a lawyer - but you get the idea. Lots of pointless (or is that punative ?) damages feasible. The provider is waiting for an external agency (the courts) to take the responsibility for saying that the site should be removed. When I was at Demon, we had a strict policy of not submitting to any third party requests WRT user account except those either demanded by law, or those events that clearly breach our AUP - which has the force of law, as part of the terms and conditions of service. Regards, -- Peter Galbavy Knowledge Matters Ltd http://www.knowledge.com/
Peter Galbavy wrote:
According to information provided to me, 9netave is in no uncertain terms is refusing to take down the site without a court order.
Beware... ... The provider is waiting for an external agency (the courts) to take
On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 07:52:32PM -0700, Patrick Greenwell wrote: the responsibility for saying that the site should be removed. When I was at Demon, we had a strict policy of not submitting to any third party requests WRT user account except those either demanded by law, or those events that clearly breach our AUP - which has the force of law, as part of the terms and conditions of service.
So 9netave has no AUP prohibiting use of its services for conducting scams? I would not want to run my web site at a hoster that could become blocked by many ISPs. But then, I'd never use 9netave for many reasons. -- Phil Howard KA9WGN phil@intur.net phil@ipal.net
On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 02:15:50AM -0500, Phil Howard wrote:
So 9netave has no AUP prohibiting use of its services for conducting scams? I would not want to run my web site at a hoster that could become blocked by many ISPs. But then, I'd never use 9netave for many reasons.
I dunno. I just made the point. Check their web site for their AUPs and if they are breached, follow the instructions they give. Remember however that the AUP is an agreement between the provider and customer and does not give a third party any rights (unless it is badly written). That is what the courts are for. -- Peter Galbavy Knowledge Matters Ltd http://www.knowledge.com/
I do believe in this case the Digital Millenium Copyright Act was violated, and it's a stiff sumbitch when it comes to penalties, especially ones involving personal gain. I'd be more worried about the blatant attempt at credit fraud if I were the person behind it though. -- Joseph W. Shaw - jshaw@insync.net Freelance Computer Security Consultant and Perl Programmer Free UNIX advocate - "I hack, therefore I am." On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Peter Galbavy wrote:
On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 02:15:50AM -0500, Phil Howard wrote:
So 9netave has no AUP prohibiting use of its services for conducting scams? I would not want to run my web site at a hoster that could become blocked by many ISPs. But then, I'd never use 9netave for many reasons.
I dunno. I just made the point. Check their web site for their AUPs and if they are breached, follow the instructions they give. Remember however that the AUP is an agreement between the provider and customer and does not give a third party any rights (unless it is badly written). That is what the courts are for.
-- Peter Galbavy Knowledge Matters Ltd http://www.knowledge.com/
Peter Galbavy wrote:
On Thu, Sep 02, 1999 at 02:15:50AM -0500, Phil Howard wrote:
So 9netave has no AUP prohibiting use of its services for conducting scams? I would not want to run my web site at a hoster that could become blocked by many ISPs. But then, I'd never use 9netave for many reasons.
I dunno. I just made the point. Check their web site for their AUPs and if they are breached, follow the instructions they give. Remember however that the AUP is an agreement between the provider and customer and does not give a third party any rights (unless it is badly written). That is what the courts are for.
If I had a web site that needed hosting by such a provider, I would want to choose one based on many factors, but one of those factors is whether or not their policies, as they affect other customers, may have an impact on my service from them. For example, I would not want to host my site where spamming comes from (which already takes 9netave out of the picture) out of the fear that network attacks could likely be higher to them (and increase the risk that my web site is unreachable). I would also not want to host my site where adult material was significantly hosted (unless I was hosting an adult site, in which case I would prefer a place that did that to gain from their experience with it). The AUP of a potential provider can have importance not just on what it would prevent me from doing (which is generally not significant for me) but also in what it will prevent other customers from doing that can have an effect on the service I get. -- Phil Howard KA9WGN phil@intur.net phil@ipal.net
On Thu, 2 Sep 1999, Peter Galbavy wrote:
On Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 07:52:32PM -0700, Patrick Greenwell wrote:
According to information provided to me, 9netave is in no uncertain terms is refusing to take down the site without a court order.
Beware...
Why beware ? While this is probably off-topic, I would like to point out some of the more heartless realities of living in a litigious society, in particular like that of the US. If the service provider removed the site based on some complaints then they would be opening themselves up for claims of restricting trade, suppression of the rights of the customers etc.
For obvious fraud, which has been reported to them? I doubt it.
The provider is waiting for an external agency (the courts) to take the responsibility for saying that the site should be removed.
If I witness someone killing someone, do I need to wait for a court to take responsibility and tell me what they were doing was illegal, and I should have taken steps to help prevent it? I'd love for you to explain how any reasonable person, after viewing the ISP's site, and the site in question, could not see that they(valuehelp.net) are attempting to run a scam. Let's see, they are: 1) Directly copying the logos, text, and webdesign of the original ISP. 2) Popping up a Javascript notice saying "You are entering a secure Value Net server" 3) Asking for account information as well as credit card information. 4) Emailing Value Net customers, representing themselves as Value Net employees, and telling people to go to that site and re-enter their information. Hello? How much more do you want? Courts are a last resort. They are not the first place you run to whenever you have a problem. They are also very fond of using a "reasonable person" litmus test in deciding if people/organizations could have reasonably been expected to recognize that a crime was being committed. It is sad to see such irresponsibility being defended. But *that* is the world we live in. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Patrick Greenwell "This is our time. It will not come again." \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Patrick Greenwell wrote:
Value Net, http://www.value.net is an ISP located in Walnut Creek, California, which I have an account with. It appears that a scam artist decided to set up http://www.valuehelp.net, which copies the site design, logos, etc. and pops up with a javascript alert saying "This is a secure Value Net server," and has a place to enter account info & credit card. They then proceeded to send email to Value Net customers telling them that they needed to go there and re-enter their information, including credit card info.
It looks like this is some new scam going around. The exact same thing just recently happened to one of our competetors. They took the ISP name, made "www.(ispname)billing.com", then proceeded to email all their customers the exact same scam message. Beware. -Dan
9netave is also pretty well known for sending unsolicited faxes -- which is illegal in the United States, and has been since the 1980's. ---------========== J.D. Falk <jdfalk@cybernothing.org> =========--------- | "But still the screen is flickering | | With an endless stream of garbage to | | Curse the place | | In a sea of random images." -Pink Floyd | ----========== http://www.cybernothing.org/jdfalk/home.html ==========----
participants (6)
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Dan Hollis -
J.D. Falk -
Joe Shaw -
Patrick Greenwell -
Peter Galbavy -
Phil Howard