Any sign of supply chain returning to normal?
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this discussion but I can't think of anywhere better to ask. Has anyone seen any progress whatsoever on supply chain issues with networking hardware? I've noticed that primary market lead times have been increasing and at the same time secondary market pricing has also been going higher at the same time, still. What have you seen?
Basically, anything that uses Broadcom or other commodity silicon is currently 55+ weeks out according to most of the vendors I work with. Custom Silicon is a bit better or so I'm told, but I've not had to order much gear with custom silicon lately, so I've not got a clear read on lead times there. I wouldn't be surprised to see some recent gear go End of Sales early just because of component shortages and fabs moving to produce the more in-demand parts over older less profitable parts. On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 8:25 AM Drew Weaver <drew.weaver@thenap.com> wrote:
I’m not sure if this is the right place for this discussion but I can’t think of anywhere better to ask.
Has anyone seen any progress whatsoever on supply chain issues with networking hardware?
I’ve noticed that primary market lead times have been increasing and at the same time secondary market pricing has also been going higher at the same time, still.
What have you seen?
A company I work for designs a lot of our own hardware and we’ve had a number of critical components go EOL suddenly and without warning, such as FPGAs, ADCs, clock generators, and SOMs just to name a few. Just a few weeks ago we were informed that a large order of FPGAs was not going to be filled at all and the order was cancelled. Of the parts that aren’t EOL (yet), many have 52-week lead times which is just a place holder for “we have no idea when we’ll get these” and not an actual delivery estimate. Older product lines and lower volume product lines are being cancelled. We had an ADC go EOL because the only factory in Japan making this part burned down so not necessarily related to what we think of as supply chain issues, but it is of a different sort.
On Apr 22, 2022, at 8:50 AM, Joe Freeman <joe@netbyjoe.com> wrote:
Basically, anything that uses Broadcom or other commodity silicon is currently 55+ weeks out according to most of the vendors I work with. Custom Silicon is a bit better or so I'm told, but I've not had to order much gear with custom silicon lately, so I've not got a clear read on lead times there.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some recent gear go End of Sales early just because of component shortages and fabs moving to produce the more in-demand parts over older less profitable parts.
Go virtual. x86 servers are still 5-8 weeks from our usual suppliers, although some NICs are 12 weeks and DC Power Supplies are also 52-weeks/'no-idea'. -- Tom On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 6:21 AM Ryan Wilkins <ryan@deadfrog.net> wrote:
A company I work for designs a lot of our own hardware and we’ve had a number of critical components go EOL suddenly and without warning, such as FPGAs, ADCs, clock generators, and SOMs just to name a few. Just a few weeks ago we were informed that a large order of FPGAs was not going to be filled at all and the order was cancelled. Of the parts that aren’t EOL (yet), many have 52-week lead times which is just a place holder for “we have no idea when we’ll get these” and not an actual delivery estimate. Older product lines and lower volume product lines are being cancelled. We had an ADC go EOL because the only factory in Japan making this part burned down so not necessarily related to what we think of as supply chain issues, but it is of a different sort.
On Apr 22, 2022, at 8:50 AM, Joe Freeman <joe@netbyjoe.com> wrote:
Basically, anything that uses Broadcom or other commodity silicon is currently 55+ weeks out according to most of the vendors I work with. Custom Silicon is a bit better or so I'm told, but I've not had to order much gear with custom silicon lately, so I've not got a clear read on lead times there.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some recent gear go End of Sales early just because of component shortages and fabs moving to produce the more in-demand parts over older less profitable parts.
Who are you buying servers from, because I'm going on a year waiting on servers from HPE, and about 6 months on servers from Dell, although that may have to do with the types of NICs I need. I'm told HPE is holding back capacity for some of their large "Government" contracts which have stiff performance penalties. For the last year and a half, I have been working on fitting out a $20 Million dollar telco network lab (x86 and network gear), and while I work for a VERY LARGE company, we can't even get escalations with the vendors. In fact about 6 months ago, we were told that Juniper, Cisco and HPE all stopped accepting VP level escalations, which can normally get you ahead of the line. Juniper has definitely been the worst in terms of delivery, I have equipment from them which was ordered last March and has delivery dates as far out as September. I tried to order a pair of AC power supplies for a Nexus 9K last week and was told delivery was quoted as 55 weeks, so maybe Cisco is no better. About a month ago, I had a quote from Extreme Networks for a pair of 1G switches, and before I could submit the order, they came back and raised the price almost 20%, so it seems some vendors may be trying to reduce demand by increasing prices. And don't even try to order an ACC100 Accelerator card, many vendors have simply stopped accepting orders. It is definitely going to get worse before it gets better. Shane On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 6:58 PM Tom Mitchell <tmitchell@netelastic.com> wrote:
Go virtual. x86 servers are still 5-8 weeks from our usual suppliers, although some NICs are 12 weeks and DC Power Supplies are also 52-weeks/'no-idea'.
-- Tom
On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 6:21 AM Ryan Wilkins <ryan@deadfrog.net> wrote:
A company I work for designs a lot of our own hardware and we’ve had a number of critical components go EOL suddenly and without warning, such as FPGAs, ADCs, clock generators, and SOMs just to name a few. Just a few weeks ago we were informed that a large order of FPGAs was not going to be filled at all and the order was cancelled. Of the parts that aren’t EOL (yet), many have 52-week lead times which is just a place holder for “we have no idea when we’ll get these” and not an actual delivery estimate. Older product lines and lower volume product lines are being cancelled. We had an ADC go EOL because the only factory in Japan making this part burned down so not necessarily related to what we think of as supply chain issues, but it is of a different sort.
On Apr 22, 2022, at 8:50 AM, Joe Freeman <joe@netbyjoe.com> wrote:
Basically, anything that uses Broadcom or other commodity silicon is currently 55+ weeks out according to most of the vendors I work with. Custom Silicon is a bit better or so I'm told, but I've not had to order much gear with custom silicon lately, so I've not got a clear read on lead times there.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some recent gear go End of Sales early just because of component shortages and fabs moving to produce the more in-demand parts over older less profitable parts.
I bought (3) MX204's 10/2021 and received them 2/2022 so about 5 months to receive those. Also received a couple SRX300's in that same purchase. I'll add that I can't say the same for the other stuff I also ordered 10/2021. - MX480 - MX240 - MPC10E-10C .which is due in around 5/2022. So about 8 months for that stuff, but, actually remains to be seen because we still haven't got it yet. -Aaron
I happen to have a few MX204’s (some MX204 “old version” and some MX204-HW-BASE left. In case anyone is interested please contact me directly. Cheers, Greg From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+gregory=emxcore.com@nanog.org> on behalf of "aaron1@gvtc.com" <aaron1@gvtc.com> Date: Friday, 22 April 2022 at 20:51 To: 'Drew Weaver' <drew.weaver@thenap.com>, "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Any sign of supply chain returning to normal? I bought (3) MX204’s 10/2021 and received them 2/2022 so about 5 months to receive those. Also received a couple SRX300’s in that same purchase. I’ll add that I can’t say the same for the other stuff I also ordered 10/2021… - MX480 - MX240 - MPC10E-10C …which is due in around 5/2022. So about 8 months for that stuff, but, actually remains to be seen because we still haven’t got it yet. -Aaron
As I've been saying for a while, instead of buying new kit, perhaps we could spend some time on getting better software onto our older kit? Getting stuff to multiplex better, be more reliable, last longer? It isn't just me wanting to upgrade a billion+ routers with existing crappy software to openwrt, is it? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9...
I'd bet it's cheaper and easier to quantify new hardware than software. Labor was super expensive and now it is ready to implode. On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
As I've been saying for a while, instead of buying new kit, perhaps we could spend some time on getting better software onto our older kit? Getting stuff to multiplex better, be more reliable, last longer?
It isn't just me wanting to upgrade a billion+ routers with existing crappy software to openwrt, is it?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9...
As someone who works within the "secondary market" for networking hardware, there is a ton of demand spilling over into the "pre-owned/vendor refurbished" market. Market prices on pre-owned equipment are rapidly increasing in step with increased demand and dwindling supply. Market prices on 1G - 10G switching products, wireless infrastructure devices, etc have been rising precipitously. Even semi "legacy" stuff going back 2-3 generations (EOL/EOS) from current gen have doubled, tripled, even quadrupled in price. I've been involved in the hardware business for 20 years and the current market landscape is unprecedented. Cory J. Andrews ++++++++++++++ NetEquity.com (Formerly CiscoBuy.com) 4519 Northgate Court Sarasota, FL 34234 ++++++++++++++ TF/FAX 877.582.4726 E - sales@netequity.com On Thu, May 19, 2022, 9:48 AM Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
I'd bet it's cheaper and easier to quantify new hardware than software. Labor was super expensive and now it is ready to implode.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
As I've been saying for a while, instead of buying new kit, perhaps we could spend some time on getting better software onto our older kit? Getting stuff to multiplex better, be more reliable, last longer?
It isn't just me wanting to upgrade a billion+ routers with existing crappy software to openwrt, is it?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9...
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:07 AM NetEquity Sales <sales@netequity.com> wrote:
As someone who works within the "secondary market" for networking hardware, there is a ton of demand spilling over into the "pre-owned/vendor refurbished" market.
I just wish there were people putting in a value-add, like reflashing with better software, first.
Market prices on pre-owned equipment are rapidly increasing in step with increased demand and dwindling supply.
Market prices on 1G - 10G switching products, wireless infrastructure devices, etc have been rising precipitously. Even semi "legacy" stuff going back 2-3 generations (EOL/EOS) from current gen have doubled, tripled, even quadrupled in price.
I've been involved in the hardware business for 20 years and the current market landscape is unprecedented.
Cory J. Andrews ++++++++++++++ NetEquity.com (Formerly CiscoBuy.com) 4519 Northgate Court Sarasota, FL 34234 ++++++++++++++ TF/FAX 877.582.4726 E - sales@netequity.com
On Thu, May 19, 2022, 9:48 AM Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
I'd bet it's cheaper and easier to quantify new hardware than software. Labor was super expensive and now it is ready to implode.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
As I've been saying for a while, instead of buying new kit, perhaps we could spend some time on getting better software onto our older kit? Getting stuff to multiplex better, be more reliable, last longer?
It isn't just me wanting to upgrade a billion+ routers with existing crappy software to openwrt, is it?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9...
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
Who's going to support that reflashed device? Certainly not the OEM vendor. On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:30 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:07 AM NetEquity Sales <sales@netequity.com> wrote:
As someone who works within the "secondary market" for networking
hardware, there is a ton of demand spilling over into the "pre-owned/vendor refurbished" market.
I just wish there were people putting in a value-add, like reflashing with better software, first.
Market prices on pre-owned equipment are rapidly increasing in step with
increased demand and dwindling supply.
Market prices on 1G - 10G switching products, wireless infrastructure
devices, etc have been rising precipitously. Even semi "legacy" stuff going back 2-3 generations (EOL/EOS) from current gen have doubled, tripled, even quadrupled in price.
I've been involved in the hardware business for 20 years and the current
market landscape is unprecedented.
Cory J. Andrews ++++++++++++++ NetEquity.com (Formerly CiscoBuy.com) 4519 Northgate Court Sarasota, FL 34234 ++++++++++++++ TF/FAX 877.582.4726 E - sales@netequity.com
On Thu, May 19, 2022, 9:48 AM Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>
wrote:
I'd bet it's cheaper and easier to quantify new hardware than
software. Labor was super expensive and now it is ready to implode.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
As I've been saying for a while, instead of buying new kit, perhaps we could spend some time on getting better software onto our older kit? Getting stuff to multiplex better, be more reliable, last longer?
It isn't just me wanting to upgrade a billion+ routers with existing crappy software to openwrt, is it?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9...
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- Jason
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:33 AM Jason Biel <jason@biel-tech.com> wrote:
Who's going to support that reflashed device? Certainly not the OEM vendor.
The oem ain't gonna support the resold device either. Yes, arguably, someone or someones doing a value add would have to be making money at it somehow. However, at least in my world, volunteers make the world round, still. It would kind of suck, I suppose, if someone unleashed a few hundred thousand reflashed routers like the TIP openwifi effort ( https://telecominfraproject.com/ ) seem to intent on doing... ... but if the OS is good enough to not need support, the impact is minimal.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:30 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:07 AM NetEquity Sales <sales@netequity.com> wrote:
As someone who works within the "secondary market" for networking hardware, there is a ton of demand spilling over into the "pre-owned/vendor refurbished" market.
I just wish there were people putting in a value-add, like reflashing with better software, first.
Market prices on pre-owned equipment are rapidly increasing in step with increased demand and dwindling supply.
Market prices on 1G - 10G switching products, wireless infrastructure devices, etc have been rising precipitously. Even semi "legacy" stuff going back 2-3 generations (EOL/EOS) from current gen have doubled, tripled, even quadrupled in price.
I've been involved in the hardware business for 20 years and the current market landscape is unprecedented.
Cory J. Andrews ++++++++++++++ NetEquity.com (Formerly CiscoBuy.com) 4519 Northgate Court Sarasota, FL 34234 ++++++++++++++ TF/FAX 877.582.4726 E - sales@netequity.com
On Thu, May 19, 2022, 9:48 AM Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
I'd bet it's cheaper and easier to quantify new hardware than software. Labor was super expensive and now it is ready to implode.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
As I've been saying for a while, instead of buying new kit, perhaps we could spend some time on getting better software onto our older kit? Getting stuff to multiplex better, be more reliable, last longer?
It isn't just me wanting to upgrade a billion+ routers with existing crappy software to openwrt, is it?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9...
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- Jason
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
The oem ain't gonna support the resold device either.
Many vendors support resold gear through a recertification cost in order to bring it back under a support contract. On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:58 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:33 AM Jason Biel <jason@biel-tech.com> wrote:
Who's going to support that reflashed device? Certainly not the OEM
vendor.
The oem ain't gonna support the resold device either.
Yes, arguably, someone or someones doing a value add would have to be making money at it somehow.
However, at least in my world, volunteers make the world round, still. It would kind of suck, I suppose, if someone unleashed a few hundred thousand reflashed routers like the TIP openwifi effort ( https://telecominfraproject.com/ ) seem to intent on doing...
... but if the OS is good enough to not need support, the impact is minimal.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:30 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:07 AM NetEquity Sales <sales@netequity.com>
wrote:
As someone who works within the "secondary market" for networking
hardware, there is a ton of demand spilling over into the "pre-owned/vendor refurbished" market.
I just wish there were people putting in a value-add, like reflashing with better software, first.
Market prices on pre-owned equipment are rapidly increasing in step
with increased demand and dwindling supply.
Market prices on 1G - 10G switching products, wireless infrastructure
devices, etc have been rising precipitously. Even semi "legacy" stuff going back 2-3 generations (EOL/EOS) from current gen have doubled, tripled, even quadrupled in price.
I've been involved in the hardware business for 20 years and the
current market landscape is unprecedented.
Cory J. Andrews ++++++++++++++ NetEquity.com (Formerly CiscoBuy.com) 4519 Northgate Court Sarasota, FL 34234 ++++++++++++++ TF/FAX 877.582.4726 E - sales@netequity.com
On Thu, May 19, 2022, 9:48 AM Josh Luthman <
josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
I'd bet it's cheaper and easier to quantify new hardware than
software. Labor was super expensive and now it is ready to implode.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
wrote:
As I've been saying for a while, instead of buying new kit, perhaps
we
could spend some time on getting better software onto our older kit? Getting stuff to multiplex better, be more reliable, last longer?
It isn't just me wanting to upgrade a billion+ routers with existing crappy software to openwrt, is it?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9...
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- Jason
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- Jason
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 11:01 AM Jason Biel <jason@biel-tech.com> wrote:
The oem ain't gonna support the resold device either.
Many vendors support resold gear through a recertification cost in order to bring it back under a support contract.
In my world, support ends after 6 months. Period. It's even worse than that. Mediatek, for example, provides a devkit to new customers, still, based on the obsolete LEDE-17 release of openwrt, e.g. 6+ year code. I recently pointed out to a marketing manager pimping how wifi-7 was going to fix latency on wifi in 3-4 years, how crappy the factory driver was, compared to what's now in linux https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/fq-codel-unifi6/ and asked when they were going to ship that instead, to a blank stare... And yes, I know of several "new" customers for that chipset that are using that obsolete code, too scared and incompentent to make the jump to a more current OS. If you think that's bad, qualcomm is worse, and I just established a new record, I think, with truly ancient broadcom's openwrt based devkit that just shipped with the "NEW" triband tp-link deco series... https://www.tp-link.com/us/deco-mesh-wifi/product-family/deco-xe75/ - I can hardly bring myself to talk to the sea of CVEs and incompetence in there... you can start with them STILL shipping dnsmasq 2.62... and linux 3.3.8. I used to be really proud that openwrt was used by all these major manufacturers, but I'd also thought that they'd have been responsible enough to at least keep up with CVEs, and stay within a few years of the mainline. If you are wondering why WiFi-6 works so badly out of the box, or why ipv6 is not rolling out, you don't have to look much further. The really, really sad thing, is that the ODM in these cases, just slaps the devkit and a fancy gui on top of it, and ships the product, with no further support. So I kind of view recycling routers, with newer software, as a great way to clean up the present ecosystem. And if you looked at the first url I pasted above, with 4x more throughput, and 10x less latency, on "obsolete", hw.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:58 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:33 AM Jason Biel <jason@biel-tech.com> wrote:
Who's going to support that reflashed device? Certainly not the OEM vendor.
The oem ain't gonna support the resold device either.
Yes, arguably, someone or someones doing a value add would have to be making money at it somehow.
However, at least in my world, volunteers make the world round, still. It would kind of suck, I suppose, if someone unleashed a few hundred thousand reflashed routers like the TIP openwifi effort ( https://telecominfraproject.com/ ) seem to intent on doing...
... but if the OS is good enough to not need support, the impact is minimal.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:30 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:07 AM NetEquity Sales <sales@netequity.com> wrote:
As someone who works within the "secondary market" for networking hardware, there is a ton of demand spilling over into the "pre-owned/vendor refurbished" market.
I just wish there were people putting in a value-add, like reflashing with better software, first.
Market prices on pre-owned equipment are rapidly increasing in step with increased demand and dwindling supply.
Market prices on 1G - 10G switching products, wireless infrastructure devices, etc have been rising precipitously. Even semi "legacy" stuff going back 2-3 generations (EOL/EOS) from current gen have doubled, tripled, even quadrupled in price.
I've been involved in the hardware business for 20 years and the current market landscape is unprecedented.
Cory J. Andrews ++++++++++++++ NetEquity.com (Formerly CiscoBuy.com) 4519 Northgate Court Sarasota, FL 34234 ++++++++++++++ TF/FAX 877.582.4726 E - sales@netequity.com
On Thu, May 19, 2022, 9:48 AM Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
I'd bet it's cheaper and easier to quantify new hardware than software. Labor was super expensive and now it is ready to implode.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote: > > As I've been saying for a while, instead of buying new kit, perhaps we > could spend some time on getting better software onto our older kit? > Getting stuff to multiplex better, be more reliable, last longer? > > It isn't just me wanting to upgrade a billion+ routers with existing > crappy software to openwrt, is it? > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGdtyLRgBat0VXoC9...
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- Jason
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- Jason
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
We have customers being forced to use EOL products that they previously replaces as they continue to wait on the vendor for new EQ. Paul -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+razor=meganet.net@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Dave Taht Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2022 12:16 PM To: Jason Biel <jason@biel-tech.com> Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Any sign of supply chain returning to normal? On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 11:01 AM Jason Biel <jason@biel-tech.com> wrote:
The oem ain't gonna support the resold device either.
Many vendors support resold gear through a recertification cost in order to bring it back under a support contract.
In my world, support ends after 6 months. Period. It's even worse than that. Mediatek, for example, provides a devkit to new customers, still, based on the obsolete LEDE-17 release of openwrt, e.g. 6+ year code. I recently pointed out to a marketing manager pimping how wifi-7 was going to fix latency on wifi in 3-4 years, how crappy the factory driver was, compared to what's now in linux https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/fq-codel-unifi6/ and asked when they were going to ship that instead, to a blank stare... And yes, I know of several "new" customers for that chipset that are using that obsolete code, too scared and incompentent to make the jump to a more current OS. If you think that's bad, qualcomm is worse, and I just established a new record, I think, with truly ancient broadcom's openwrt based devkit that just shipped with the "NEW" triband tp-link deco series... https://www.tp-link.com/us/deco-mesh-wifi/product-family/deco-xe75/ - I can hardly bring myself to talk to the sea of CVEs and incompetence in there... you can start with them STILL shipping dnsmasq 2.62... and linux 3.3.8. I used to be really proud that openwrt was used by all these major manufacturers, but I'd also thought that they'd have been responsible enough to at least keep up with CVEs, and stay within a few years of the mainline. If you are wondering why WiFi-6 works so badly out of the box, or why ipv6 is not rolling out, you don't have to look much further. The really, really sad thing, is that the ODM in these cases, just slaps the devkit and a fancy gui on top of it, and ships the product, with no further support. So I kind of view recycling routers, with newer software, as a great way to clean up the present ecosystem. And if you looked at the first url I pasted above, with 4x more throughput, and 10x less latency, on "obsolete", hw.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:58 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:33 AM Jason Biel <jason@biel-tech.com> wrote:
Who's going to support that reflashed device? Certainly not the OEM vendor.
The oem ain't gonna support the resold device either.
Yes, arguably, someone or someones doing a value add would have to be making money at it somehow.
However, at least in my world, volunteers make the world round, still. It would kind of suck, I suppose, if someone unleashed a few hundred thousand reflashed routers like the TIP openwifi effort ( https://telecominfraproject.com/ ) seem to intent on doing...
... but if the OS is good enough to not need support, the impact is minimal.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 10:30 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:07 AM NetEquity Sales <sales@netequity.com> wrote:
As someone who works within the "secondary market" for networking hardware, there is a ton of demand spilling over into the "pre-owned/vendor refurbished" market.
I just wish there were people putting in a value-add, like reflashing with better software, first.
Market prices on pre-owned equipment are rapidly increasing in step with increased demand and dwindling supply.
Market prices on 1G - 10G switching products, wireless infrastructure devices, etc have been rising precipitously. Even semi "legacy" stuff going back 2-3 generations (EOL/EOS) from current gen have doubled, tripled, even quadrupled in price.
I've been involved in the hardware business for 20 years and the current market landscape is unprecedented.
Cory J. Andrews ++++++++++++++ NetEquity.com (Formerly CiscoBuy.com) 4519 Northgate Court Sarasota, FL 34234 ++++++++++++++ TF/FAX 877.582.4726 E - sales@netequity.com
On Thu, May 19, 2022, 9:48 AM Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
I'd bet it's cheaper and easier to quantify new hardware than software. Labor was super expensive and now it is ready to implode.
On Thu, May 19, 2022 at 9:27 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote: > > As I've been saying for a while, instead of buying new kit, > perhaps we could spend some time on getting better software onto our older kit? > Getting stuff to multiplex better, be more reliable, last longer? > > It isn't just me wanting to upgrade a billion+ routers with > existing crappy software to openwrt, is it? > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T21on7g1MqQZoK91epUdxLYFGd > tyLRgBat0VXoC9e3I/edit
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- Jason
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- Jason
-- FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
On 5/19/22 18:15, Dave Taht wrote:
So I kind of view recycling routers, with newer software, as a great way to clean up the present ecosystem. And if you looked at the first url I pasted above, with 4x more throughput, and 10x less latency, on "obsolete", hw.
When I had my battle with Cisco over LDPv6 vs. SR(v6) in 2020, I told them that Covid has really changed the landscape, and people (read: their customers) no longer have money to spend like they did, for a multitude of reasons, not the top of which is a lack. of. money. I said to them that they need to focus on helping customers answer their "why", and not continue with the old model of having sales meetings and assigning $$ values against customer names for the year, as if ants visit PoP's and chew routers down to smithereens as a matter of course. People no longer have money to spend on things that don't add value. And while routers do add value, how vendors choose to make money from them beyond selling the hardware and providing decent support is what erodes that value, and customer trust. Users will delete an app in 5 seconds if they launch it and it doesn't do what it claims in a way they perceive as value. Service providers will do the exact same thing to vendors that act like disappointing apps competing for space on your phone and space in your mind. Mark.
On 5/19/22 16:07, NetEquity Sales wrote:
As someone who works within the "secondary market" for networking hardware, there is a ton of demand spilling over into the "pre-owned/vendor refurbished" market.
Market prices on pre-owned equipment are rapidly increasing in step with increased demand and dwindling supply.
Market prices on 1G - 10G switching products, wireless infrastructure devices, etc have been rising precipitously. Even semi "legacy" stuff going back 2-3 generations (EOL/EOS) from current gen have doubled, tripled, even quadrupled in price.
I've been involved in the hardware business for 20 years and the current market landscape is unprecedented.
And this is the case for Transport gear as well, not just IP/MPLS/Ethernet. Mark.
On 5/19/22 15:27, Dave Taht wrote:
As I've been saying for a while, instead of buying new kit, perhaps we could spend some time on getting better software onto our older kit? Getting stuff to multiplex better, be more reliable, last longer?
So we've been running Arista's 7508E devices as core switches in data centres to support 1Gbps, 10Gbps and 100Gbps internal cabling (purely Layer 2, no IP). We suddenly got told that they are now EoS/EoL some time back (I probably should have done a better job tracking this, but I tend to rely on vendor notifications for that based on my Cisco/Juniper experience). So Arista advised we move to the 7508R3, which doesn't make sense for us because we are currently only using 2x slots from the chassis, and nowhere close to max'ing out the line card or switch fabric capacity. It just didn't make sense to us to spend hundreds-of-thousands of $$ for no extra benefit in performance or technology (Layer 2 is very simple). So we decided to keep the the 7508E, even if they are EoL. The box is brain-dead, runs fine, shifts bits nice and good, and hums along quietly. I can't fathom why a box like that has already been EoL'ed. It isn't long in the tooth, and still has plenty of bite in it. But, we also need to use common sense, and for us, swapping it out just to maintain "support" isn't worth the cash. There are options for cold sparing... Mark.
On Fri, 20 May 2022 at 11:21, Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> wrote:
I can't fathom why a box like that has already been EoL'ed. It isn't long in the tooth, and still has plenty of bite in it. But, we also need to use common sense, and for us, swapping it out just to maintain "support" isn't worth the cash. There are options for cold sparing...
That's engineering, understanding what risks and compromises are worth carrying. If you do it by the book, you're not even needed, just 0-rate AS/PS services to your RFP and the vendor is happy to do it by the book for you. And fully agreed, in many cases it makes sense to run boxes to the ground until they physically stop working. You just need to figure out how to handle the MTTR well. -- ++ytti
On 5/20/22 10:24, Saku Ytti wrote:
That's engineering, understanding what risks and compromises are worth carrying. If you do it by the book, you're not even needed, just 0-rate AS/PS services to your RFP and the vendor is happy to do it by the book for you. And fully agreed, in many cases it makes sense to run boxes to the ground until they physically stop working. You just need to figure out how to handle the MTTR well.
We are going to need more 100Gbps data centre switching in other PoP's in the coming months, and we like the 7508E for this, even if Arista have EoL'ed it. So for those builds, we'll grab them off the open market, and cold spare with a full chassis in copy. Way cheaper than when we bought them from Arista, even with the ongoing mark-up on the pre-owned space. Arista are also not developing anymore new or maintenance code for the supervisor that runs on the 7508E, but we are fine with that because this is not an Internet-facing box, and is only doing Layer 2 with features that will never change (802.1Q and LACP is about as advanced as it gets, for us). Mark.
On Fri May 20, 2022 at 10:15:14am +0200, Mark Tinka wrote:
We suddenly got told that they are now EoS/EoL some time back (I probably should have done a better job tracking this, but I tend to rely on vendor notifications for that based on my Cisco/Juniper experience).
I've heard that some vendors are prematurely EoS/EoL'ing kit as a result of the silicon shortages - and redesigning kit to use silicon that's easier to get hold of. Simon
Simon, That is correct in most cases. Fabs are changing and the time needed to manufacture is limited and most vendors are opt’ing to EoL/EoS gear early to move to newer tech and cannot risk the time to manufacture older silicon and spares that could be used for newer silicon. On Fri, May 20, 2022, at 07:44, Simon Lockhart wrote:
On Fri May 20, 2022 at 10:15:14am +0200, Mark Tinka wrote:
We suddenly got told that they are now EoS/EoL some time back (I probably should have done a better job tracking this, but I tend to rely on vendor notifications for that based on my Cisco/Juniper experience).
I've heard that some vendors are prematurely EoS/EoL'ing kit as a result of the silicon shortages - and redesigning kit to use silicon that's easier to get hold of.
Simon
---- Jason
On 5/20/22 14:44, Simon Lockhart wrote:
I've heard that some vendors are prematurely EoS/EoL'ing kit as a result of the silicon shortages - and redesigning kit to use silicon that's easier to get hold of.
This was my suspicion, because we started using this box in 2017. I can't remember when it launched, but I'd imagine a year or two earlier. We have boxes from 2014 with other vendors still in service and fully supported. So we were not going to be bullied into new hardware we didn't need. Mark.
------- Original Message ------- On Friday, April 22nd, 2022 at 13:24, Drew Weaver <drew.weaver@thenap.com> wrote:
Has anyone seen any progress whatsoever on supply chain issues with networking hardware?
Nope. Personally speaking I'm struggling on everything from simple Intel network cards to half-decent switches. On the grapevine, I am hearing the same. I was, for example, talking to a rep from $major_IX ... he said they've got more than one customer with pending port connections due to lack of kit, and one customer told him some router card was not due til Q1 2023. I think the reality is it's going to get bad before it gets better. There's probably an almighty backlog that needs to be processed before new orders reach the front of the queue. On another grapevine I've heard the situation is, shall we say, not helped by the hyperscalers. The hyperscalers are (allegedly) queue jumping using hard $$$ ... i.e. saying to vendors "I'll give you this chunky order in return for a place higher up the queue". Vendors of course being vain beasts who don't care for much apart from next quarter's financial results are (allegedly) lapping up the "free" money.
Anecdotally, I had a pair of Nexus 93180s that I ordered in May 2021 show up in February 2022, so 9 months. The estimated ship date got punted several times (probably due to being preempted by folks employing the approach Laura outlined ;-) ). I haven't ordered anything since then, but I understand that 4-8 months isn't unexpected, still. - Jima From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Drew Weaver Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 07:24 To: 'nanog@nanog.org' <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Any sign of supply chain returning to normal? I'm not sure if this is the right place for this discussion but I can't think of anywhere better to ask. Has anyone seen any progress whatsoever on supply chain issues with networking hardware? I've noticed that primary market lead times have been increasing and at the same time secondary market pricing has also been going higher at the same time, still. What have you seen?
There's some queue-jumping happening for other reasons - medical/hospital a significant portion of that - but even there I'm hearing 6+ months for some switch hardware and Cisco APs are pretty uniformly "if you didn't order before March, you won't see them for over a year". On Fri, Apr 22, 2022 at 6:29 PM nanog@jima.us <nanog@jima.us> wrote:
Anecdotally, I had a pair of Nexus 93180s that I ordered in May 2021 show up in February 2022, so 9 months. The estimated ship date got punted several times (probably due to being preempted by folks employing the approach Laura outlined ;-) ).
I haven't ordered anything since then, but I understand that 4-8 months isn't unexpected, still.
- Jima
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Drew Weaver Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 07:24 To: 'nanog@nanog.org' <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Any sign of supply chain returning to normal?
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this discussion but I can't think of anywhere better to ask.
Has anyone seen any progress whatsoever on supply chain issues with networking hardware?
I've noticed that primary market lead times have been increasing and at the same time secondary market pricing has also been going higher at the same time, still.
What have you seen?
so i am chatting with the volvo mechanic this morning. he said that 25 years ago volvo had essentially two engines, carb and fuel injection. from the late '90s on, the variations grew; and the parts and tools one needed exploded. he started feeling supply chain issues early. and now the number of variations being designed is narrowing again. i suspect that, in years of overabundant late stage capitalism, folk went nuts. and we are now paying for it. one of my fave quotes I thought of it in a slightly different way--like a space that we were exploring and, in the early days, we figured out this consistent path through the space: IP, TCP, and so on. What's been happening over the last few years is that the IETF is filling the rest of the space with every alternative approach, not necessarily any better. Every possible alternative is now being written down. And it's not useful. -- Jon Postel randy
Randy Bush wrote:
i suspect that, in years of overabundant late stage capitalism, folk went nuts. and we are now paying for it. one of my fave quotes
I thought of it in a slightly different way--like a space that we were exploring and, in the early days, we figured out this consistent path through the space: IP, TCP, and so on. What's been happening over the last few years is that the IETF is filling the rest of the space with every alternative approach, not necessarily any better. Every possible alternative is now being written down. And it's not useful. -- Jon Postel
And Steve Deering agreed with Jon saying "Exactly". That's so funny because the statement was published in Oct. 1998 and the first rfc on IPv6 was published in Dec. 1995. Masataka Ohta
On 23/04/2022 01:28, nanog@jima.us wrote: Ordered a pair of ASR9906s in Jan 2022 with delivery Aug 2022. -Hank
Anecdotally, I had a pair of Nexus 93180s that I ordered in May 2021 show up in February 2022, so 9 months. The estimated ship date got punted several times (probably due to being preempted by folks employing the approach Laura outlined ;-) ).
I haven't ordered anything since then, but I understand that 4-8 months isn't unexpected, still.
- Jima
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Drew Weaver Sent: Friday, April 22, 2022 07:24 To: 'nanog@nanog.org' <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Any sign of supply chain returning to normal?
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this discussion but I can't think of anywhere better to ask.
Has anyone seen any progress whatsoever on supply chain issues with networking hardware?
I've noticed that primary market lead times have been increasing and at the same time secondary market pricing has also been going higher at the same time, still.
What have you seen?
participants (22)
-
aaron1＠gvtc.com -
Dave Taht -
Drew Weaver -
George Metz -
Gregory -
Hank Nussbacher -
Jason Biel -
Jason Biel -
Joe Freeman -
Josh Luthman -
Laura Smith -
Mark Tinka -
Masataka Ohta -
nanog＠jima.us -
NetEquity Sales -
Paul Amaral -
Randy Bush -
Ryan Wilkins -
Saku Ytti -
Shane Ronan -
Simon Lockhart -
Tom Mitchell