Superfast internet may replace world wide web
says the solemn headline of Telegraph. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/06/ninternet106... Also related to this one, here: "Web could collapse as video demand soars" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/07/nweb107.xml .. and we in Nanog are still discussing IPv6! ;-)
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Glen Kent wrote: > says the solemn headline of Telegraph. > .. and we in Nanog are still discussing IPv6! ;-) It's because we don't have a hadron demolition derby to power our American interwebs: "The power of the grid will be unlocked this summer with the switching on of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC)." -Bill
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Bill Woodcock wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Glen Kent wrote:
says the solemn headline of Telegraph. .. and we in Nanog are still discussing IPv6! ;-)
It's because we don't have a hadron demolition derby to power our American interwebs:
"The power of the grid will be unlocked this summer with the switching on of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC)."
-Bill
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 08:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Lucy Lynch <llynch@civil-tongue.net> wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Bill Woodcock wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Glen Kent wrote:
says the solemn headline of Telegraph. .. and we in Nanog are still discussing IPv6! ;-)
It's because we don't have a hadron demolition derby to power our American interwebs:
"The power of the grid will be unlocked this summer with the switching on of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC)."
Also http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080330 and http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080406 --Steve Bellovin, http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb
On Apr 7, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 08:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Lucy Lynch <llynch@civil-tongue.net> wrote:
Also http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080330 and http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080406
I love those! I also love the top story here, especially the last sentence: <http://bobpark.physics.umd.edu/WN08/wn040408.html> -- TTFN, patrick
Bill Woodcock wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Glen Kent wrote: > says the solemn headline of Telegraph. > .. and we in Nanog are still discussing IPv6! ;-)
It's because we don't have a hadron demolition derby to power our American interwebs:
"The power of the grid will be unlocked this summer with the switching on of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC)."
And those of us that live next to the LHC wonder if we will be sucked into a {vortex|wormhole}. Thomas
On Apr 7, 2008, at 11:36 AM, Thomas Kernen wrote:
Bill Woodcock wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Glen Kent wrote:
says the solemn headline of Telegraph. .. and we in Nanog are still discussing IPv6! ;-) It's because we don't have a hadron demolition derby to power our American interwebs: "The power of the grid will be unlocked this summer with the switching on of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC)."
And those of us that live next to the LHC wonder if we will be sucked into a {vortex|wormhole}.
If you are, it won't matter if you live near it or not. Regards Marshall
Thomas
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:36:09 +0200, Thomas Kernen said:
And those of us that live next to the LHC wonder if we will be sucked into a {vortex|wormhole}.
You mean like this? http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080406&mode=classic
Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 17:36:09 +0200, Thomas Kernen said:
And those of us that live next to the LHC wonder if we will be sucked into a {vortex|wormhole}.
You mean like this?
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20080406&mode=classic
Sounds about right... so maybe one of the benefits of spending most of my time on the road. I might not actually be there when they power it up. T
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Bill Woodcock wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Glen Kent wrote:
says the solemn headline of Telegraph. .. and we in Nanog are still discussing IPv6! ;-)
It's because we don't have a hadron demolition derby to power our American interwebs:
"The power of the grid will be unlocked this summer with the switching on of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC)."
I doubt it: http://www.geant2.net/server/show/nav.00d00h001003 "The structure of the LHC Computing Grid (LCG) is to distribute the data first to 12 Tier 1 sites, each connected to Tier 0 (CERN) by a dedicated wavelength switched path of 10Gbps. These paths are provided by the new hybrid (IP routed/ wavelength switched) structure of G?ANT2. Corresponding dark-fibre lightpaths will be provided by each of the European NRENs involved." So within Europe, much of the LHC data will move via paths that not even part of the Internet/Geant2 infrastructure: http://www.geant2.net/upload/pdf/PUB-07-179_GN2_Topology_Jan_08_final.pdf Just look for the black links which are all dark fiber out of Switzerland. Also, LHC will generate 15Petabytes per annum - not Gigabytes or Terabytes as some media have stated. -Hank
Glen Kent wrote:
says the solemn headline of Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/06/ninternet106...
It is always good to see that journalists don't know that "Networks" are also used for other purposes than their daily dose of nonsense (also called the Internet or World Wide Web for the web-only portion etc)
Also related to this one, here:
"Web could collapse as video demand soars" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/07/nweb107.xml
.. and we in Nanog are still discussing IPv6! ;-)
The CERN LHC (Large Hadron Collider) is a nice toy. They had an Open Day (http://lhc2008.web.cern.ch/LHC2008/index-E.html) yesterday, which was really impressive. No more Open Days in the tunnel are planned for the next couple of years, thus for everybody who missed it: http://gallery.unfix.org/2008/2008-04-06-cern-lhc/ Greets, Jeroen
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008, Glen Kent wrote:
says the solemn headline of Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/06/ninternet106...
So, the internet was created in Switzerland at Cern's particle physics center? Can someone look up Al Gore's passport history and tell us when he spent time there? :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis | I route Senior Network Engineer | therefore you are Atlantic Net | _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
Subject: Superfast internet may replace world wide web says the solemn headline of Telegraph.
Hasn't your mummy told you not to believe everything that you read in the papers? Especially when it involves technology! In any case, there is no new Internet here, just an engineered P2P network (or call it a CDN if you will) that is intended to distribute 15 million gigs per year of data to scientists who crunch that data on virtual supercomputer clusters known as the Grid. They do all of this on the Internet today, except for big data transfers for which most countries have build special academic IP networks. The Grid is rather like Amazon's EC2 and this CERN project is rather like Amazon's S3. Yes, I agree with the Telegraph that P2P and cloud computing Amazon style, are indeed the wave of the future, but they won't replace the web or the Internet. They are just another theme being added to the Internet recipe. It's just like Heston Blumenthal's cuisine <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heston_Blumenthal>; it's still food, it's still served in restaurants and it still counts towards his three Michelin stars. Still, I don't expect bacon and eggs ice cream to come to Baskin Robbins anytime soon. --Michael Dillon
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 20:21:26 +0530 From: "Glen Kent" <glen.kent@gmail.com> Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu
says the solemn headline of Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/06/ninternet106...
Also related to this one, here:
"Web could collapse as video demand soars" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/07/nweb107.xml
.. and we in Nanog are still discussing IPv6! ;-)
Sigh. Never let a clueless writer put up a story as technically complex as this. He clearly does not know the difference between the web (which WAS invented at CERN) and the Internet (which was not). His confusion on this and other details leads to a story which has little or nothing to say. 1. The grid was NOT invented at CERN, although CERN/LHC people were involved. 2. Aside from being the a huge physics experiment, it is also a huge network experiment. We will be carrying many gigabits of data from CERN to FermiLab and Brookhaven as well as from those facilities to physics researcher all over the world. By 2011 we may be seeing close to 100 Gbps 24/7 for months at a time. And that is just data from CERN to the US. They will be sending data to many other countries. (OK, there are some short pauses for calibration.) 3. This will all be over the Internet, though much will utilize dedicated lines purchased/leased just for this. But it's still TCP/IP and UDP (mostly the former) and mostly using traditional P2P techniques to get adequate performance over links with RTTs in excess of 200 ms. It is true that the problems faced by CERN are similar to those faced by CDNs streaming video, but it is different in that this data is NOT streamed. You can't take the chance that the packet with the Higgs Boson waving "hello" is dropped. Since almost of the traffic is passing over dedicated links, congestion due to aggregation, the big issue with streaming video, is simply not an issue. We want to move as much data in a single "stream" as you can convince TCP to allow. So the things learned from the LHC network experiment may well help improve the Internet and help with things like video distribution, the grid is NOT going to replace the web, let alone the Internet. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: oberman@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751
On Apr 7, 2008, at 1:00 PM, Kevin Oberman wrote:
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 20:21:26 +0530 From: "Glen Kent" <glen.kent@gmail.com> Sender: owner-nanog@merit.edu
says the solemn headline of Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/06/ninternet106...
Also related to this one, here:
"Web could collapse as video demand soars" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/07/nweb107.xml
.. and we in Nanog are still discussing IPv6! ;-)
Sigh. Never let a clueless writer put up a story as technically complex as this. He clearly does not know the difference between the web (which WAS invented at CERN) and the Internet (which was not). His confusion on this and other details leads to a story which has little or nothing to say.
1. The grid was NOT invented at CERN, although CERN/LHC people were involved.
2. Aside from being the a huge physics experiment, it is also a huge network experiment. We will be carrying many gigabits of data from CERN to FermiLab and Brookhaven as well as from those facilities to physics researcher all over the world. By 2011 we may be seeing close to 100 Gbps 24/7 for months at a time. And that is just data from CERN to the US. They will be sending data to many other countries. (OK, there are some short pauses for calibration.)
3. This will all be over the Internet, though much will utilize dedicated lines purchased/leased just for this. But it's still TCP/IP and UDP (mostly the former) and mostly using traditional P2P techniques to get adequate performance over links with RTTs in excess of 200 ms.
It is true that the problems faced by CERN are similar to those faced by CDNs streaming video, but it is different in that this data is NOT streamed. You can't take the chance that the packet with the Higgs Boson waving "hello" is dropped.
I would actually disagree with that, _IF_ your SNR is limited by your bit rate. In VLBI (where the SNR _IS_ limited by the bit rate) it is more efficient to send more (new) data than to repeat old data that gets lost. Having talked to particle physicists here who feel that they are in the same regime, I would be curious as to whether or not CERN has done the math on this, and with what result. Regards Marshall
Since almost of the traffic is passing over dedicated links, congestion due to aggregation, the big issue with streaming video, is simply not an issue. We want to move as much data in a single "stream" as you can convince TCP to allow.
So the things learned from the LHC network experiment may well help improve the Internet and help with things like video distribution, the grid is NOT going to replace the web, let alone the Internet. -- R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer Energy Sciences Network (ESnet) Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) E-mail: oberman@es.net Phone: +1 510 486-8634 Key fingerprint:059B 2DDF 031C 9BA3 14A4 EADA 927D EBB3 987B 3751
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 20:21:26 +0530, Glen Kent said:
says the solemn headline of Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/06/ninternet106...
So yoy get higher bandwidth (physical pipe allowing) by downloading from a "grid" of systems. Sounds suspiciously like somebody has re-invented BitTorrent? (Sorry, am in a cynical mood today.. ;)
That and someone can't tell the difference between a network and an application that runs in a network. On Apr 7, 2008, at 10:38 AM, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Mon, 07 Apr 2008 20:21:26 +0530, Glen Kent said:
says the solemn headline of Telegraph.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/06/ ninternet106.xml
So yoy get higher bandwidth (physical pipe allowing) by downloading from a "grid" of systems.
Sounds suspiciously like somebody has re-invented BitTorrent?
(Sorry, am in a cynical mood today.. ;)
participants (14)
-
Bill Woodcock -
Fred Baker -
Glen Kent -
Hank Nussbacher -
Jeroen Massar -
Jon Lewis -
Kevin Oberman -
Lucy Lynch -
Marshall Eubanks -
michael.dillon＠bt.com -
Patrick W. Gilmore -
Steven M. Bellovin -
Thomas Kernen -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu