How about a trial period from ARIN? You get your IP block, and you get 30 days to determine if it is "clean" or not. Do some testing, check the blacklists, do some magic to see if there are network-specific blacklists that might prevent your customers from sending or receiving email/web/other connections with that new IP block. If there are problems, go back to ARIN and show them your work and if they can verify your work (or are simply lazy) you get a different block. ARIN puts the block into another quiet period. Maybe they use the work you did to clean up the block, maybe they don't. Cleaning up a block of IPs previously used by shady characters has a real cost, both in time and money. The argument as I see it is who bears the responsibility and cost of that cleanup. Beckman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Tom (and NANOG), You may be interested in an alternative approach, motivated by the very problem you are facing (see below). Our system, SNARE, develops IP reputation automatically based on a combination of network features. We'll discuss the pros and cons of this approach at MAAWG. The additional information that SNARE provides might be helpful. -Nick Detecting Spammers with SNARE: Spatio-temporal Network-level Automatic Reputation Engine Shuang Hao, Nadeem Ahmed Syed, Nick Feamster, Alexander Gray, Sven Krasser Usenix Security '09, Montreal, Canada, August 2009 Users and network administrators need ways to filter email messages based primarily on the reputation of the sender. Unfortunately, conventional mechanisms for sender reputation -- notably, IP blacklists -- are cumbersome to maintain and evadable. This paper investigates ways to infer the reputation of an email sender based solely on network-level features, without looking at the contents of a message. First, we study first-order properties of network-level features that may help distinguish spammers from legitimate senders. We examine features that can be ascertained without ever looking at a packet's contents, such as the distance in IP space to other email senders or the geographic distance between sender and receiver. We derive features that are lightweight, since they do not require seeing a large amount of email from a single IP address and can be gleaned without looking at an email's contents -- many such features are apparent from even a single packet. Second, we incorporate these features into a classification algorithm and evaluate the classifier's ability to automatically classify email senders as spammers or legitimate senders. We build an automated reputation engine, SNARE, based on these features using labeled data from a deployed commercial spam-filtering system. We demonstrate that SNARE can achieve comparable accuracy to existing static IP blacklists: about a 70% detection rate for less than a 0.3% false positive rate. Third, we show how SNARE can be integrated into existing blacklists, essentially as a first-pass filter. http://gtnoise.net/pub/index.php?detail=14 On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Tom Pipes <tom.pipes@t6mail.com> wrote:

I am amazed with the amount of thoughtful comments I have seen, both on and off list. It really illustrates that people are willing to try to help out, but there is an overall lack of clear direction on how to improve things.  Most of us seem to adopt that which has always just worked for us. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are a lot of improvements/mods going on with RBL operators in terms of the technology and how they choose who to block.  I'm also certain that most of the carriers are doing their best to follow RFCs, use e-mail filtering, and perform deep packet inspection to keep themselves off of the lists. AND there seems to be some technologies that were meant to work, and cause their own sets of problems (example:  allowing the end user to choose what is considered spam and blacklisting based on that).  As was said before, it's not the "WHY" but rather how can we fix it if it's broke.

The large debate seems to revolve around responsibility, or lack thereof. In our case, we are the small operator who sits in the sidelines hoping that someone larger than us, or more influential has an opinion.  We participate in lists, hoping to make a difference and contribute, knowing that in a lot of cases, our opinion is just that:  an opinion.  I suppose that could spark a debate about joining organizations (who shall go nameless here), power to the people, etc.

It seems as though a potential solution *may* revolve around ARIN/IANA having the ability to communicate an authoritative list of reassigned IP blocks back to the carriers.  This could serve as a signal to remove a block from the RBL, but I'm sure there will be downfalls with doing this as well.

In my specific case, I am left with a legacy block that I have to accept is going to be problematic. Simply contacting RBL operators is just not doing the trick. Most of the e-mails include links or at least an error code, but some carriers just seem to be blocking without an error, or even worse, an ACL...

We will continue to remove these blocks as necessary, reassign IPs from other blocks where absolutely necessary, and ultimately hope the problem resolves itself over time.

Thanks again for the very thoughtful and insightful comments, they are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

--- Tom Pipes T6 Broadband/ Essex Telcom Inc tom.pipes@t6mail.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Pipes" <tom.pipes@t6mail.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, September 8, 2009 9:57:58 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central Subject: Repeated Blacklisting / IP reputation

Greetings,

We obtained a direct assigned IP block 69.197.64.0/18 from ARIN in 2008. This block has been cursed (for lack of a better word) since we obtained it. It seems like every customer we have added has had repeated issues with being blacklisted by DUL and the cable carriers. (AOL, AT&T, Charter, etc). I understand there is a process to getting removed, but it seems as if these IPs had been used and abused by the previous owner. We have done our best to ensure these blocks conform to RFC standards, including the proper use of reverse DNS pointers.

I can resolve the issue very easily by moving these customers over to our other direct assigned 66.254.192.0/19 block. In the last year I have done this numerous times and have had no further issues with them.

My question: Is there some way to clear the reputation of these blocks up, or start over to prevent the amount of time we are spending with each customer troubleshooting unnecessary RBL and reputation blacklisting?

I have used every opportunity to use the automated removal links from the SMTP rejections, and worked with the RBL operators directly. Most of what I get are cynical responses and promises that it will be fixed.

If there is any question, we perform inbound and outbound scanning of all e-mail, even though we know that this appears to be something more relating to the block itself.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how we can clear this issue up? Comments on or off list welcome.

Thanks,

--- Tom Pipes T6 Broadband/ Essex Telcom Inc tom.pipes@t6mail.com