---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 12:06:35 -0800 From: Norman Gillaspie <norman@pc-sat.com> Reply-To: inet-access@earth.com To: inet-access@earth.com Subject: Class "B" forsale Resent-Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 13:07:47 -0700 (MST) Resent-From: inet-access@earth.com One class "B" Internet address available to the highest bidder. Please call 415-854-5263 and leave a message if interested. Please referance the above. Satellite delivered usenet news via satellite. conserve your expensive internet connection and machine resources. Get a really current feed. Contact PC-Sat 415-854-5262 or HTTP://www.pc-sat.com ============================== ISP Mailing List ============================== Email ``unsubscribe'' to inet-access-request@earth.com to be removed. Experience varies directly with equipment ruined.
X->One class "B" Internet address available to the highest bidder. X->Please call 415-854-5263 and leave a message if interested. The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B. Plus some yearly maint fee. BTW, I remember reading about someone else selling a Class B, I thought I heard they got around $30,000 for it. I offered to take it at no cost :) Christian
X->One class "B" Internet address available to the highest bidder. X->Please call 415-854-5263 and leave a message if interested.
The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B.
How much is your time (spent making up and writing the justification for a class B) worth? Regards, -drc
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, David R. Conrad wrote:
The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B.
How much is your time (spent making up and writing the justification for a class B) worth?
I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes selling address space, who are they to say no? Apparently someone made a case for a class B at one time or another, no longer needs it (for whatever reason) and wants to pass it on to someone else and make a little profit in at the same time. Now granted, I don't neccessarily agree with what they're doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either. I mean, lets think about this for a second. Say I 'own' the fictional block 223.101.0.0, its swipped to me, everything is in order as it should be. I decide for whatever reason to turn off my routers, sell my equipment and move to the Caymans to enjoy the rest of my life. I now have two choices, 1: Return my block to ARIN, or 2: Sell my block to someone else and make a small (or large for that matter, I'm sure I could sell it for a interesting sum of money) profit. scenario 1: It gets returned and some other poor fool has to jump through flaming hoops and surive a pool of toxic waste to get a few IPs. scenario 2: I change all the records to point to them, swip it out to them, basically do everything needed to make them the legitimate 'owners' of that block, they pay me a nice lump of cash and we're both happy. As I see it, changing ownership of IPs is no different than changing ownership of a domain. [-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
I "kind" of agree. :) If I own a company, lets call it Acme, which has an internet connection and that company is making use of a class B address space it got from the 'NIC and if I sell Acme does that address block need to be returned? Another example is if I own an ISP that has several blocks of address space. What happens if I sell the ISP? Do the address blocks get returned? If Acme has to return their address blocks upon the sale of the company and the ISP doesn't on its sale, we've got a situation which would keep lawyers in Lexus for decades. If the answer is that you can legitimately transfer an address block if you sell the company then there's a nice big loophole. Anyone with a class B for sale could simply form a company and then sell it. Now I don't own a sellable address block. I'm just playing devil's advocate in what appears to be a very interesting quandary. On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, David R. Conrad wrote:
The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B.
How much is your time (spent making up and writing the justification for a class B) worth?
I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes selling address space, who are they to say no? Apparently someone made a case for a class B at one time or another, no longer needs it (for whatever reason) and wants to pass it on to someone else and make a little profit in at the same time. Now granted, I don't neccessarily agree with what they're doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either. I mean, lets think about this for a second.
Say I 'own' the fictional block 223.101.0.0, its swipped to me, everything is in order as it should be. I decide for whatever reason to turn off my routers, sell my equipment and move to the Caymans to enjoy the rest of my life. I now have two choices, 1: Return my block to ARIN, or 2: Sell my block to someone else and make a small (or large for that matter, I'm sure I could sell it for a interesting sum of money) profit.
scenario 1:
It gets returned and some other poor fool has to jump through flaming hoops and surive a pool of toxic waste to get a few IPs.
scenario 2:
I change all the records to point to them, swip it out to them, basically do everything needed to make them the legitimate 'owners' of that block, they pay me a nice lump of cash and we're both happy.
As I see it, changing ownership of IPs is no different than changing ownership of a domain.
[-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
-- Regards, Tom ________________________________________________________________________ | "The Egg Domain" | "And all you touch and all you see, | | tomg@egg.com | is all your life will ever be." | | http://www.egg.com/ | (Pink Floyd) |
Hmm, let's make your questions more complex - if I own ISP and this ISP bacame bankrupt, wpuld it's address space be - selled, returned, owned by it's customers, etc... ??? On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Tom Glover wrote:
I "kind" of agree. :) If I own a company, lets call it Acme, which has an internet connection and that company is making use of a class B address space it got from the 'NIC and if I sell Acme does that address block need to be returned? Another example is if I own an ISP that has several blocks of address space. What happens if I sell the ISP? Do the address blocks get returned? If Acme has to return their address blocks upon the sale of the company and the ISP doesn't on its sale, we've got a situation which would keep lawyers in Lexus for decades. If the answer is that you can legitimately transfer an address block if you sell the company then there's a nice big loophole. Anyone with a class B for sale could simply form a company and then sell it.
Now I don't own a sellable address block. I'm just playing devil's advocate in what appears to be a very interesting quandary.
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, David R. Conrad wrote:
The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B.
How much is your time (spent making up and writing the justification for a class B) worth?
I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes selling address space, who are they to say no? Apparently someone made a case for a class B at one time or another, no longer needs it (for whatever reason) and wants to pass it on to someone else and make a little profit in at the same time. Now granted, I don't neccessarily agree with what they're doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either. I mean, lets think about this for a second.
Say I 'own' the fictional block 223.101.0.0, its swipped to me, everything is in order as it should be. I decide for whatever reason to turn off my routers, sell my equipment and move to the Caymans to enjoy the rest of my life. I now have two choices, 1: Return my block to ARIN, or 2: Sell my block to someone else and make a small (or large for that matter, I'm sure I could sell it for a interesting sum of money) profit.
scenario 1:
It gets returned and some other poor fool has to jump through flaming hoops and surive a pool of toxic waste to get a few IPs.
scenario 2:
I change all the records to point to them, swip it out to them, basically do everything needed to make them the legitimate 'owners' of that block, they pay me a nice lump of cash and we're both happy.
As I see it, changing ownership of IPs is no different than changing ownership of a domain.
[-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
-- Regards, Tom ________________________________________________________________________ | "The Egg Domain" | "And all you touch and all you see, | | tomg@egg.com | is all your life will ever be." | | http://www.egg.com/ | (Pink Floyd) |
Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow (+7 095) 194-19-95 (Network Operations Center Hot Line),(+7 095) 239-10-10, N 13729 (pager) (+7 095) 196-72-12 (Support), (+7 095) 194-33-28 (Fax)
Good question! Would the bankrupt court consider the address space as a sellable asset? On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Alex P. Rudnev wrote:
Hmm, let's make your questions more complex - if I own ISP and this ISP bacame bankrupt, wpuld it's address space be - selled, returned, owned by it's customers, etc... ???
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Tom Glover wrote:
I "kind" of agree. :) If I own a company, lets call it Acme, which has an internet connection and that company is making use of a class B address space it got from the 'NIC and if I sell Acme does that address block need to be returned? Another example is if I own an ISP that has several blocks of address space. What happens if I sell the ISP? Do the address blocks get returned? If Acme has to return their address blocks upon the sale of the company and the ISP doesn't on its sale, we've got a situation which would keep lawyers in Lexus for decades. If the answer is that you can legitimately transfer an address block if you sell the company then there's a nice big loophole. Anyone with a class B for sale could simply form a company and then sell it.
Now I don't own a sellable address block. I'm just playing devil's advocate in what appears to be a very interesting quandary.
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, David R. Conrad wrote:
The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B.
How much is your time (spent making up and writing the justification for a class B) worth?
I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes selling address space, who are they to say no? Apparently someone made a case for a class B at one time or another, no longer needs it (for whatever reason) and wants to pass it on to someone else and make a little profit in at the same time. Now granted, I don't neccessarily agree with what they're doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either. I mean, lets think about this for a second.
Say I 'own' the fictional block 223.101.0.0, its swipped to me, everything is in order as it should be. I decide for whatever reason to turn off my routers, sell my equipment and move to the Caymans to enjoy the rest of my life. I now have two choices, 1: Return my block to ARIN, or 2: Sell my block to someone else and make a small (or large for that matter, I'm sure I could sell it for a interesting sum of money) profit.
scenario 1:
It gets returned and some other poor fool has to jump through flaming hoops and surive a pool of toxic waste to get a few IPs.
scenario 2:
I change all the records to point to them, swip it out to them, basically do everything needed to make them the legitimate 'owners' of that block, they pay me a nice lump of cash and we're both happy.
As I see it, changing ownership of IPs is no different than changing ownership of a domain.
[-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
-- Regards, Tom ________________________________________________________________________ | "The Egg Domain" | "And all you touch and all you see, | | tomg@egg.com | is all your life will ever be." | | http://www.egg.com/ | (Pink Floyd) |
Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow (+7 095) 194-19-95 (Network Operations Center Hot Line),(+7 095) 239-10-10, N 13729 (pager) (+7 095) 196-72-12 (Support), (+7 095) 194-33-28 (Fax)
-- Regards, Tom ________________________________________________________________________ | "The Egg Domain" | "And all you touch and all you see, | | tomg@egg.com | is all your life will ever be." | | http://www.egg.com/ | (Pink Floyd) |
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, David R. Conrad wrote:
The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B.
How much is your time (spent making up and writing the justification for a class B) worth?
I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes selling address space, who are they to say no?
But ARIN is *NOT* selling address space. That is not the intent of ARIN nor is it the purpose of ARIN. With that thought in mind, try reading through the material at http://www.arin.net once again.
doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either.
Read RFC2050. It has this statement 7. The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be approved by the regional registries. The party trying to obtain the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were requesting an IP address directly from the IR.
I change all the records to point to them, swip it out to them, basically do everything needed to make them the legitimate 'owners' of that block, they pay me a nice lump of cash and we're both happy.
According to that clause above, you can't SWIP it out to them without lying. Lying is wrong. According to the above clause, the new owner has to meet the same criteria for receiving address space as you do. If they did meet those criteria and if you charge them more than the cost of applying for free address space then you are ripping them off which is wrong. Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com
On Sun, Mar 09, 1997 at 09:43:12AM -0800, Michael Dillon wrote:
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, David R. Conrad wrote:
The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B.
How much is your time (spent making up and writing the justification for a class B) worth?
I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes selling address space, who are they to say no?
But ARIN is *NOT* selling address space. That is not the intent of ARIN nor is it the purpose of ARIN. With that thought in mind, try reading through the material at http://www.arin.net once again.
doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either.
Read RFC2050. It has this statement
7. The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be approved by the regional registries. The party trying to obtain the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were requesting an IP address directly from the IR.
Read RFC2008: Rekhter & Li Best Current Practice [Page 5] RFC 2008 October 1996 "address ownership" policy, the organization would be able to use these addresses to gain access to the Internet routing services, regardless of where the organization connects to the Internet. While it has never been explicitly stated that various Internet Registries use the "address ownership" allocation policy, it has always been assumed (and practiced). Oh oh... :-) For address space assigned, transferred or delegated prior to October 1996, you've got a problem.
Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com
-- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - The Finest Internet Connectivity http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | 99 Analog numbers, 77 ISDN, Web servers $75/mo Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| Email to "info@mcs.net" WWW: http://www.mcs.net/ Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Michael Dillon wrote:
I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes selling address space, who are they to say no?
But ARIN is *NOT* selling address space. That is not the intent of ARIN nor is it the purpose of ARIN. With that thought in mind, try reading through the material at http://www.arin.net once again.
Been there, read that, and I still say they're selling space, leasing space, auctioning space, etc. Fact of the matter is they are _CHARGING MONEY_ (not bannana peels) for services rendered. Their services are to hand out IP space and maintain databases, therefor they are SELLING space.
doing, but I certainly can't say anything 'wrong' about it either.
Read RFC2050. It has this statement
7. The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be approved by the regional registries. The party trying to obtain the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were requesting an IP address directly from the IR.
The last time I checked RFC's were not GOSPEL, they are a good idea to follow but are NOT mandatory. I could turn around tomorrow and create an MUA that doesn't follow the SMTP RFC except in the most remote cases and whats going to happen? _NOTHING_, why? because RFCs simply are not the GOSPEL, and lets face it, stupid traditions are just that, stupid traditions, this is no longer your cozy little lounge, there are millions of people here and just because you got here first doesn't mean you're allowed to make decisions for the rest of them.
According to that clause above, you can't SWIP it out to them without lying. Lying is wrong. According to the above clause, the new owner has to meet the same criteria for receiving address space as you do. If they did meet those criteria and if you charge them more than the cost of applying for free address space then you are ripping them off which is wrong.
Since I've already gone over the fact that RFCs can be treated just like toilet paper (ie. Netscape, MSIE, and countless thousands of other products) I'll ignore your primary argument as worthless. They met my critiera, not yours, no lieing there, and if they're going to pay my costs, thats not ripping them off, thats called business. [-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
Been there, read that, and I still say they're selling space, leasing space, auctioning space, etc. Fact of the matter is they are _CHARGING MONEY_ (not bannana peels) for services rendered. Their services are to hand out IP space and maintain databases, therefor they are SELLING space.
So, since I paid money for my car registration & license plates, I should be able to sell my plates to someone else to put on their car?
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Lon R. Stockton, Jr. wrote:
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
Been there, read that, and I still say they're selling space, leasing space, auctioning space, etc. Fact of the matter is they are _CHARGING MONEY_ (not bannana peels) for services rendered. Their services are to hand out IP space and maintain databases, therefor they are SELLING space.
So, since I paid money for my car registration & license plates, I should be able to sell my plates to someone else to put on their car?
If you ask me? so long as you reported the sale and did all the paperwork, sure.. why not. [-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
No, but you should be able to let someone else use your car without them having to get their own plates and registration. For every silly analogy there is an equal and opposite -- sorry, silly analogy. DS -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeane L. Dixon, world renowned psychic, died Saturday (1/25/97) at age 79. There was almost universal sadness and lament throughout the world of celebrity psychics. Contacted at her home, Dionne Warwick's spokeswoman said that "[Miss] Warwick is beside herself -- none of us expected this to happen". -------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Lon R. Stockton, Jr. wrote:
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
Been there, read that, and I still say they're selling space, leasing space, auctioning space, etc. Fact of the matter is they are _CHARGING MONEY_ (not bannana peels) for services rendered. Their services are to hand out IP space and maintain databases, therefor they are SELLING space.
So, since I paid money for my car registration & license plates, I should be able to sell my plates to someone else to put on their car?
So, since I paid money for my car registration & license plates, I should be able to sell my plates to someone else to put on their car?
I believe that people with spiffy vanity plates have sold them. Why not? But discussion about the Internet is always plagued with analogies. IP address allocation is not really like the allocation of land, or phone numbers, or pollution credits, or milk quotas, or typing paper, or license plates, or routing table slots, or cocaine. It's sort of like all of these things, but not completely like any of them. And the nature of an analogy is that it pretends two things are similar in all ways. The best way to think about this is not: "IP addresses should be allocated in X way because Y is allocated that way," "But IP addresses are not like Y," "Are so!", but instead: "What is the current policy on IP address allocation? What are the implications? What would be the implications of this other policy?" Analogies are a good tool when things really are the same, but nothing hurts you like using the wrong tool. Since IP addresses are not like other things, there is not much to compare them to. -- Shields, CrossLink.
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Michael Dillon wrote:
I think you miss my point, since the ARIN is for all intents and purposes selling address space, who are they to say no?
But ARIN is *NOT* selling address space. That is not the intent of ARIN nor is it the purpose of ARIN. With that thought in mind, try reading through the material at http://www.arin.net once again.
Been there, read that, and I still say they're selling space, leasing space, auctioning space, etc. Fact of the matter is they are _CHARGING MONEY_ (not bannana peels) for services rendered. Their services are to hand out IP space and maintain databases, therefor they are SELLING space.
Here in Western Canada, when a piece of real estate is sold you have to pay a registration fee to the Land Titles office to register the transfer of ownership. This registration has the same legal force as a deed does in Eastern Canada. However, in spite of the fact that the Land Titles office is _CHARGING MONEY_ for services rendered, they are *NOT* selling real estate. I think ARIN is in a similar position with regard to IP address space as the Land Titles office. Of course like any analogy it should not be pushed too far, but I should note that there are situations in which the land titles office will not accept the transfer of ownership for any one of a number of reasons, thus they are applying a policy that has been set down by the community which they service. Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com
On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Christian Nielsen wrote:
X->One class "B" Internet address available to the highest bidder. X->Please call 415-854-5263 and leave a message if interested.
The way I see it, it is worth no more than $10,000. As that is what ARIN is going to charge any corp to get a Class B. Plus some yearly maint fee. BTW, I remember reading about someone else selling a Class B, I thought I heard they got around $30,000 for it. I offered to take it at no cost :)
Let us make sure that we understand one thing about ARIN. A person can't walk in with $10,000 and buy a /16. You will still have to justify your IP space needs the way you do it today. What has changed is that there will be an ongoing maint. fee. --blast %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% \ Tim Keanini | "The limits of my language, / / | are the limits of my world." \ \ blast@broder.com | --Ludwig Wittgenstein / \ +================================================/ |Key fingerprint = 7B 68 88 41 A8 74 AB EC F0 37 98 4C 37 F7 40 D6 | / PUB KEY: http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/~bal/pks-commands.html \ %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Michael Dillon wrote:
One class "B" Internet address available to the highest bidder. Please call 415-854-5263 and leave a message if interested.
I'm just a little curious. If the current policy (as stated by at least one Draft RFC) is that IP address space is not owned, how can someone sell a Class B? If they are selling it, that must mean that they don't actually need it, so therefore they are obligated to return it to InterNIC. On the other side, maybe InterNIC has an obligation to take it back. What kinds of guarantees are there that if someone buys it, that they will actually be able to get and keep this Class B? Pete Kruckenberg pete@inquo.net
On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Pete Kruckenberg wrote:
On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Michael Dillon wrote:
One class "B" Internet address available to the highest bidder. Please call 415-854-5263 and leave a message if interested.
I'm just a little curious. If the current policy (as stated by at least one Draft RFC) is that IP address space is not owned, how can someone sell a Class B? If they are selling it, that must mean that they don't actually need it, so therefore they are obligated to return it to InterNIC. On the other side, maybe InterNIC has an obligation to take it back.
What kinds of guarantees are there that if someone buys it, that they will actually be able to get and keep this Class B?
Good questions. Furthermore The NIC gives IP space out to a particulr user which is registerd via SWIP's how and who is using it. SWIP's are required if you ever want to get additional IP space. So, the seller is also put at risk at never getting additonal IP space if the buyer does not use the entire Class B in a satisfactory manner to the NIC. So, one could conclude the seller is likely a fly-by-night operation. I'd be interested in hearing otherwise ;) .stb
On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Pete Kruckenberg wrote:
One class "B" Internet address available to the highest bidder. Please call 415-854-5263 and leave a message if interested.
I'm just a little curious. If the current policy (as stated by at least one Draft RFC) is that IP address space is not owned, how can someone sell a Class B?
It's a black market thing.
If they are selling it, that must mean that they don't actually need it, so therefore they are obligated to return it to InterNIC. On the other side, maybe InterNIC has an obligation to take it back.
Yep.
What kinds of guarantees are there that if someone buys it, that they will actually be able to get and keep this Class B?
None. It is entirely possible that this will happen: 1. Someone will pay $50,000 cash to the seller 2. The seller will go through the motions of transferring the address block (which may or may not include some sort of changes to NIC records) 3. The NIC will refuse to change the records and/or the operators in the defaultless core will refuse to listen to the announcements for this block. 4. The buyer will ask for their money back and the seller will refuse. 5. Upon consulting a lawyer the buyer will find that they have no enforcable contract. Especially so if the seller no longer controls the block because the NIC has taken it back. Black markets aren't quite the same as dealing in illegal drugs but they are in a similarly shady neighborhood. NOTE: I don't support the selling of IP addresses and I don't support the "ownership" of IP addresses. I believe that the the NIC's are stewards of a public resource and that IP addresses should be allocated on the basis of demonstrated need, not market forces. Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com
[note reply-to] Hi,
Black markets aren't quite the same as dealing in illegal drugs but they are in a similarly shady neighborhood.
Actually, they are.
I believe that the the NIC's are stewards of a public resource and that IP addresses should be allocated on the basis of demonstrated need, not market forces.
Market forces have been shown to be a more efficient mechanism to determine "need" than central planning when no objective and easily measured criteria can be determined. Regards, -drc
Market forces have been shown to be a more efficient mechanism to determine "need" than central planning when no objective and easily measured criteria can be determined.
With "No objective and easily measured criteria," it would seem to be hard to measure efficiency. Historically, open markets have worked well sometimes and not worked others. Pre-judging how one might work in IPv4 addresses would seem hubris. randy
Michael Dillon <michael@memra.com> wrote:
randy@psg.com (Randy Bush) wrote:
Market forces have been shown to be a more efficient mechanism to determine "need" than central planning when no objective and easily measured criteria can be determined.
With "No objective and easily measured criteria," it would seem to be hard to measure efficiency.
The point is that without "objective and easily measured criteria" it is flat out impossible for central planning to produce anything approaching an efficient outcome.
Historically, open markets have worked well sometimes and not worked others.
This is kind of a meaningless statement without some examples. How is anyone to glean anything from it without some idea of what conditions you think it will or won't work well under? At any rate, I don't recall Michael using terms like "worked well", etc. His claim was that it was "more efficient". I might not like the way it would shake out, but if certain conditions were to exist (ownership, ability to change prices easily to match demand, technological alternatives to getting more IP's, etc.) then the result would be the "most efficient."
Pre-judging how one might work in IPv4 addresses would seem hubris.
Once again, this statement doesn't really say anything either. Does this mean that we shouldn't do anything? Any course chosen would require "pre-judging" by this criteria, after all. If you'd like to present reasons why you are skeptical about market forces providing an efficient mechanism then go ahead. Pointing out that Michael (or you, or I, or anyone) can't predict the future with a 100% accuracy seems... well, pointless. Matt
[note reply-to] Hi,
What kinds of guarantees are there that if someone buys it, that they will actually be able to get and keep this Class B?
An Internet address is just a 32 bit number that has uniqueness guaranteed by the registries. That guarantee holds regardless of who is actually "in possesion of" the address. If an organization with a surplus /16 agrees to let another organization use that /16 in exchange for compensation of some sort, that address will still be routable on the Internet if it was routable before the exchange. Of course, whether it is actually routed is another story. Given the registries do not allow for outright transfers of this sort directly (see RFC 2050), one course of action would be for the original "owner" to sell the "right of use" of the /16. Of course, the appropriate action (according to RFC 2050 and historical Internet culture) would be for the original "owner" to return address space they don't need... Regards, -drc
On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Pete Kruckenberg wrote:
What kinds of guarantees are there that if someone buys it, that they will actually be able to get and keep this Class B?
If buyer & seller make a deal, with the current model buyer will be able to use it without any problem. vab..
On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Pete Kruckenberg wrote:
What kinds of guarantees are there that if someone buys it, that they will actually be able to get and keep this Class B?
As has been said allready there are no fail-safes in place that I know of which would stop the transaction. However the tradition has been to "play nice in the sandbox" and give back addresses which are no longer in use or not needed. Given that the over the last few years the net has taken on a diffrent look and feel I was just wondering if there are any firm rules on this and if not weather someone, or a group of people were looking at the problems this presents? James
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, James Lang wrote:
However the tradition has been to "play nice in the sandbox" and give back addresses which are no longer in use or not needed. Given that the over the last few years the net has taken on a diffrent look and feel I was just wondering if there are any firm rules on this and if not weather someone, or a group of people were looking at the problems this presents?
In a sense, this is one of the reasons that NANOG exists. Both the mailing list and the meetings provide a forum for people to not only share what works operationally, but to work out what is acceptable behavior on the network. However, there are people that doing work that touches on this. There is always RFC 2050 which covers IP allocation guidelines. You might want to read through Randy Bush's slides from the last NANOG on inter-provider cooperation http://www.psg.com/~randy/970210.nanog/ CAIDA and especially CAIDAnce are somewhat relevant http://www.nlanr.net/Caida/ http://www.nlanr.net/COLL/caidance.html You should look through the WG's at http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/wg-dir.html especially the ones in the OPS section like PIER and GRIP. Since the nature of the network is one of voluntary cooperation to make things work, there are no firm rules and no big brother to see that things are put right. But if people don't play nice in the sandbox they will find it tough to make a living in the sand business :-) Michael Dillon - Internet & ISP Consulting Memra Software Inc. - Fax: +1-250-546-3049 http://www.memra.com - E-mail: michael@memra.com
participants (17)
-
Alex P. Rudnev -
Brett L. Hawn -
Christian Nielsen -
David R. Conrad -
David Schwartz -
James Lang -
Karl Denninger -
Lon R. Stockton, Jr. -
matt＠netmeg.net -
Michael Dillon -
Pete Kruckenberg -
randy＠psg.com -
shields＠crosslink.net -
Stephen Balbach -
Tim Keanini -
Tom Glover -
Vab Goel