Actually Bill... I have two (conflicting) perspectives as I said.... but to clarify: 1) A customer asked 'Can you make sure we have the IP for the network design' which I was wondering if it is even technically possible.... 2) If I design some amazing solutions... am I able to claim IP. My gut feeling is no to both of them... because, if it happen (VERY LIKELY) that somewhere, someone designs an network to the exact same specifications - to the config line - Would that mean they have infringed on my IP unknowingly, and how would I even know if I was unique in the first instance? What I am really looking for is some working, experience, precedence that backs up the view that IP on network design is actually not possible... which is my gut feeling. In the past I have always stated that, and it's never been challenged... and nor is it in this case... but, it is an important think I guess many of us should probably be aware of where we stand. ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder & Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks <http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks> ; Twitter: eintellego <https://twitter.com/eintellego> LinkedIn: /in/skeeve <http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve> ; Expert360: Profile <https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9> The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 7:45 PM, Bill Woodcock <woody@pch.net> wrote:

I include a "no intellectual property ownership is transferred between the Parties" clause in just about everything we do. Doesn't demand that any of the questions you raise be answered, but shuts the door to problems pretty firmly.

-Bill

...

On Feb 12, 2015, at 17:20, Skeeve Stevens < skeeve+nanog@eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I have two perspectives I am trying to address with regard to network design and intellectual property.

1) The business who does the design - what are their rights?

2) The customer who asked for the rights from a consultant

My personal thoughts are conflicting:

- You create networks with standard protocols, configurations, etc... so it shouldn't be IP - But you can design things in interesting ways, with experience, skill, creativity.. maybe that should be IP? - But artwork are created with colors, paintbrushes, canvas... but the result is IP - A photographer takes a photo - it is IP - But how are 'how you do your Cisco/Juniper configs' possibly IP? - If I design a network one way for a customer and they want 'IP', does that mean I can't ever design a network like that again? What?

I've seen a few telcos say that they own the IP related to the network design of their customers they deploy... which based on the above... feels uncomfortable...

I'm really conflicted on this and wondering if anyone else has come across this situation. Perhaps any legal cases/precedent (note, I am not looking for legal advice :)

If this email isn't appropriate for the list... sorry, and please feel free to respond off-line.

...Skeeve

*Skeeve Stevens - Founder & Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com

Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve

Facebook: eintellegonetworks <http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks> ; Twitter: eintellego <https://twitter.com/eintellego>

LinkedIn: /in/skeeve <http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve> ; Expert360: Profile <https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9>

The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering

Exactly my thoughts Mark.... ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder & Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks <http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks> ; Twitter: eintellego <https://twitter.com/eintellego> LinkedIn: /in/skeeve <http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve> ; Expert360: Profile <https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9> The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 11:53 PM, Mark Tinka <mark.tinka@seacom.mu> wrote:

On 12/Feb/15 14:36, Skeeve Stevens wrote:

...

What I am really looking for is some working, experience, precedence that backs up the view that IP on network design is actually not possible... which is my gut feeling.

I've designed some pretty unique and profitable features using tech. (not necessarily open standards, but available to anyone who buys the hardware) because I was able to interpret the feature better than the competition, and make it do things it wasn't originally intended for.

Now, when I leave that company and repeat the same at new company (out of sheer fun, perhaps), can the previous company claim IP, or would I be the one to claim IP since I was the one who thought up the idea in the first place?

Configurations between operators are all the same. How you put them together is what can set you apart in your market. I suppose your question is whether "how you put them together that sets up apart from the competition" is worth the IP debate.

Mark.

The extent to which this is technically feasible and how one must go about it actually varies greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Something well worth considering given the number of jurisdictions already mentioned in the current discussion. There are a number of possible concerns that the customer in question may be attempting to solve with their request. The first step is to identify which concern(s) they want to address. 1. Do they want to make sure that they have sufficient rights in the design that they can replicate/modify/otherwise use it without further compensating you? 2. Do they want to make sure that you surrender your rights in the design so that you are not able to provide an identical solution to another customer in the future and/or that you do not use their design as an example or case study for your marketing purposes? 3. Do they not really have a concern, but someone told them that it was important to ask this question? 4. Do they want to make sure this treated as a “work for hire” with all the legal implications that caries? There are probably others that I am not thinking of at the moment. Owen

On Feb 12, 2015, at 08:18 , William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:

On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+nanog@eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:

...

Actually Bill... I have two (conflicting) perspectives as I said.... but to clarify:

1) A customer asked 'Can you make sure we have the IP for the network design' which I was wondering if it is even technically possible....

Hi Skeeve,

IANAL but I play one when I can get away with it.

This is usually covered as, "Contractor agrees to provide Customer with all documents, diagrams, software or other materials produced in the course of the contract. Contractor shall upon request assign all ownership of such materials to Customer. Contractor shall retain no copies of said material following termination of the contract."

So yes, it's technically feasible.

...

2) If I design some amazing solutions... am I able to claim IP.

If it's copyrightable (a "solution" may be), then as a contractor (not an employee) the copyright vests in you. If the contract states that you agree to transfer it to the customer then you breach the contract if you don't.

If the contract says the copyrights are theirs then at least that part of the contract is probably void. Barring W2 employment copyrights nearly always vest in the individual who first put them in to a tangible form. There are explicit and narrow exceptions in the law. Preface of a book. That sort of thing. It's unlikely you'll run afoul of any of them.

Lawyers get this wrong shockingly often. IP doesn't vest in the customer and can't be transferred until it exists. The creator is a W2 employee. The contractor agrees to transfer it following creation. Just about everything else is void.

If the contract doesn't say one way or another then the lawyer who wrote it was asleep at the wheel.

However... the techniques used to produce the solution usually classify as ideas. You may be bound under non-disclosure terms to not share ideas produced for the customer within the scope of the customer's system but ideas are never property. You can't own them and neither can the customer.

Regards, Bill Herrin

-- William Herrin ................ herrin@dirtside.com bill@herrin.us Owner, Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>

On Feb 12, 2015, at 5:43 PM, Ahad Aboss <ahad@telcoinabox.com> wrote:

Hi Skeeve,

In a sense, you are an artist as network architecture is an art in itself. It involves interaction with time, processes, people and things or an intersection between all. And to that, artwork would fall under copyright *Sarcasm*? +1 on art form! More like an abstract martial art really. PacketFu!

As an architect, you analyze customer needs and design a solution using your creative ideas to address their business driven needs today. In some ways, this is easier because creating a If you are a consultant wouldn’t that fall under work for hire? If you are an employee? Check the contract, I am betting there is a clause for IP ownership!

business centric network provides you some parameters to design within. You might mix and match technologies that will suite one business better than the other but it's your creative ideas. It's not secrets of their trade that you replicate or takeaway. You are master of the trade and you design a solution that works best for them.

While some design principles for application service provider, enterprise, carrier or ISP have similarities, no two network is the same.

If you don't claim IP on the design or publish company names you've done the designs for, under what jurisdiction can they claim what you designed is their IP? What if their requirement changes in 6 months from now?

If a architect designs a road system in a particular way, does it mean he/she can't design another road again because of IP issue?

I would tend to disagree.

+1

It may not answer your questions but I hope it provides some content to support your case :)

Regards, Ahad

-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Owen DeLong Sent: Friday, 13 February 2015 6:46 AM To: William Herrin Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design

The extent to which this is technically feasible and how one must go about it actually varies greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Something well worth considering given the number of jurisdictions already mentioned in the current discussion.

There are a number of possible concerns that the customer in question may be attempting to solve with their request. The first step is to identify which concern(s) they want to address.

1. Do they want to make sure that they have sufficient rights in the design that they can replicate/modify/otherwise use it without further compensating you?

2. Do they want to make sure that you surrender your rights in the design so that you are not able to provide an identical solution to another customer in the future and/or that you do not use their design as an example or case study for your marketing purposes?

3. Do they not really have a concern, but someone told them that it was important to ask this question?

4. Do they want to make sure this treated as a "work for hire" with all the legal implications that caries?

There are probably others that I am not thinking of at the moment.

Owen

...

On Feb 12, 2015, at 08:18 , William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:

On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 7:36 AM, Skeeve Stevens <skeeve+nanog@eintellegonetworks.com> wrote:

...

Actually Bill... I have two (conflicting) perspectives as I said.... but to clarify:

1) A customer asked 'Can you make sure we have the IP for the network design' which I was wondering if it is even technically possible....

Hi Skeeve,

IANAL but I play one when I can get away with it.

This is usually covered as, "Contractor agrees to provide Customer with all documents, diagrams, software or other materials produced in the course of the contract. Contractor shall upon request assign all ownership of such materials to Customer. Contractor shall retain no copies of said material following termination of the contract."

So yes, it's technically feasible.

...

2) If I design some amazing solutions... am I able to claim IP.

If it's copyrightable (a "solution" may be), then as a contractor (not an employee) the copyright vests in you. If the contract states that you agree to transfer it to the customer then you breach the contract if you don't.

If the contract says the copyrights are theirs then at least that part of the contract is probably void. Barring W2 employment copyrights nearly always vest in the individual who first put them in to a tangible form. There are explicit and narrow exceptions in the law. Preface of a book. That sort of thing. It's unlikely you'll run afoul of any of them.

Lawyers get this wrong shockingly often. IP doesn't vest in the customer and can't be transferred until it exists. The creator is a W2 employee. The contractor agrees to transfer it following creation. Just about everything else is void.

If the contract doesn't say one way or another then the lawyer who wrote it was asleep at the wheel.

However... the techniques used to produce the solution usually classify as ideas. You may be bound under non-disclosure terms to not share ideas produced for the customer within the scope of the customer's system but ideas are never property. You can't own them and neither can the customer.

Regards, Bill Herrin

-- William Herrin ................ herrin@dirtside.com bill@herrin.us Owner, Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>

William, I beg to differ though this is getting slightly off topic. Art = something different, unexpected, not quite in your ordinary experience yet related to your ordinary experience. Art is connected to what we experience every day but it represents some kind of transformation of the everyday. Something that is not actually entirely real, it can’t be found by locating it. It requires human intervention, it’s the finger print if you will, of our existence in the world that has its impact on things that we transform through the use of imagination. How can architecture being an interaction of time, process, flow, people and things be art? The answer is elegance. It inspires people to see things in a new way and the interaction with people is the clearest point where architecture becomes an art. Properly architected network not only need to work well now, they must also provide a foundation for business and transform business, provide boundaries for information and people, and yet enable collaboration. We are entering an age of agile service creation with virtualized IT infrastructure, breaking down old constraints in many domains, including the delivery of services. No need to dwell further in to this era of SDN and NFV. To achieve all this, network designs must go beyond mechanical algorithms, and even beyond the uncertain empirical, into the world of abstract concept, mathematical theory, and raw power. Network architecture is not just about configuring routers, switches, firewalls or load balancers. One must think beyond that. How does technology drive the business? What is the perception of the network within the organization? What is the perception of the technology stance beyond the organization? If competitors see your network design, will they wonder why they didn’t think of it, or just wonder why it works at all? If a potential partner sees your network design, will they see the future or the past? All these things contribute art to the world of network architecture. Here is a question for you; When you observe a beautifully architected building, what do you see? (Link to some examples) http://www.azuremagazine.com/article/2014-top-10-architecture-projects/ Is it all about noticing the details, making observation about textures, lines materials, shapes, proportions, light and shadow? Or do we agree that architects don't only deal with buildings - they think of people, places, materials, philosophy and history, and only then consider the actual building? Ahad -----Original Message----- From: William Waites [mailto:wwaites@tardis.ed.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, 13 February 2015 8:55 PM To: ahad@telcoinabox.com Cc: skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com; owen@delong.com; bill@herrin.us; nanog@nanog.org Subject: [OT] Re: Intellectual Property in Network Design On Fri, 13 Feb 2015 11:43:14 +1100, Ahad Aboss <ahad@telcoinabox.com> said: > In a sense, you are an artist as network architecture > is an art in itself. It involves interaction with time, > processes, people and things or an intersection between all. This Friday's off-topic post for NANOG: Doing art is creative practice directed to uncover something new and not pre-conceived. Successful acts of art produce something that not only wasn't there before but that nobody thought could be there. The art is the change in thinking that results. Whatever else is left over is residue. An engineer or architect in the usual setting, no matter how skilled, is not doing art because the whole activity is pre-conceived. Even a clean and elegant design is not usually intended to show beautiful connections between ideas the same way poetry or mathematics might. Hiring an engineer for this purpose almost never happens in industry. Rather the purpose is to make a thing that does what it is intended to do. It is craft, or second-order residue. Useful, possibly difficult, but not art. Some people want to claim ownership of a recipe for predictably creating residue of a certain kind. An artist knows that this is not good for doing art because nothing new can come from it. If they are committed to their practice, they will not seek to prevent others from using an old recipe. Why would they? They have already moved on. Some older thoughts on the topic: http://archive.groovy.net/syntac/

On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 22:21:00 +1100, Skeeve Stevens said:

Personally, I don't think so. Sure some awesomely smart engineers designed this... but did they 'create' anything to do it?

I already cited legislative history that indicates that even things like phone directories are suitable for copyright protection. That "creation" bar is pretty darned low.

Hey Randy, I'm keen to see how you might think that fits in to the context? ...Skeeve *Skeeve Stevens - Founder & Chief Network Architect* eintellego Networks Pty Ltd Email: skeeve@eintellegonetworks.com ; Web: eintellegonetworks.com Phone: 1300 239 038 ; Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 ; Skype: skeeve Facebook: eintellegonetworks <http://facebook.com/eintellegonetworks> ; Twitter: eintellego <https://twitter.com/eintellego> LinkedIn: /in/skeeve <http://linkedin.com/in/skeeve> ; Expert360: Profile <https://expert360.com/profile/d54a9> The Experts Who The Experts Call Juniper - Cisco - Cumulus Linux - Cloud - Consulting - IPv4 Brokering 2015-02-12 21:19 GMT+11:00 Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>:

creative commons

On 02/12/15 07:42, Randy Bush wrote:

...

I'm keen to see how you might think that fits in to the context?

...

creative commons

i prefer to be paid for being able to think, not for what i once thought. creative commons suits my needs for network designs.

And to compound the (perceived) problem, any IP embedded in a network design is almost always "prior art". It's not a rabbit-hole worth going down - I agree with Randy, imb

And to compound the (perceived) problem, any IP embedded in a network design is almost always "prior art". It's not a rabbit-hole worth going down - I agree with Randy,

i have four lives. iij research, dev, ... our goal is to publish our ideas there are coworkers doing very innovative design for datacenter stuff. we do not patent, ... open source routing security design, specs, software, ... bsd and cc licensed. an open source crypto design and code project. bsd and cc licensed. and the last is giving away as much networking design and operational knowledge as i can to engineers in the developing world. steal this book! randy