On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 12:03:07PM -0400, Ralph Doncaster wrote:

...

With the current situation, I see the following: Proportionally here are more technical people in jobs WITH degrees than without

So maybe that's my problem. I dropped out of university because I felt completing my degree would be an endorsement of a flawed post-secondary education system. (I completed 37 of 40 credits required for a BCS, so it would have been only a small effort to finish)

I only hired 2 full-time staff in my Ottawa office that held a university degree. One I fired after 2 months, the other I fired after 3.

"Sir, I think you have me confused with someone who cares". -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Scott Granados wrote:

the other hand I can think of some good reasons why someone might not have a degree but still be totally qualified.

*jumping on my soap box* I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is obsurd. Sure it is an easy way to discount the ones that are too stupid to perform the job, but there are a lot of very qualified people in the pool that don't have degrees. For instance, I do network engineering, design and troubleshooting for a lot of people (including being a Level-3 with VT's 4help staff) but I don't have a degree YET..In fact I'm failing several classes that aren't related to Comp Engineering. So why should I be judged over my abilities to find the forces on objects instead of my abilities to troubleshoot a network that is having problems? Here's my current problem...I had a very good offer for a co-op at the same place where I had an internship for last summer and MORE than proved my abilities. But because it was a government position they asked for my transcript and then "selectively lost" my co-op forms. So why should I be judged on my GPA (which is still higher than most of the engineers at Virginia Tech) instead of my past experience level? I know several degree holding people who couldn't code or troubleshoot a network if they tried, and that is what they studied in college. And lastly, why should I be required to hold a degree in a field that isn't even the same as what I do for a living....A computer engineer/scientist only learns in college how to code software or design hardware. Not how to maintain a network or configure a router. That is what the career certs are for, they should be designed into college curriculums and then maybe I would enjoy my college experience...... *stepping down* BTW I'm looking for a summer job, it seems nobody wants networking interns....I've had 10 full-time offers but nothing for summer only....And yes companies are hiring left and right for IT people and the industry is picking back up. - Andrew --- <zerocool@netpath.net> http://www.andrewsworld.net/ ICQ: 2895251 Cisco Certified Network Associate Development Assistant: Netpath/Stratonet, Inc. (http://www.netpath.net/) Email: dorsett@netpath.net "Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make all of them yourself."

What you have to remember is that having a degree or certification allows the non-clue full out in the 'real' world to easily tell the difference between you and say, the world's smartest garbage man. Of course, the upside to that is, you will only wind up working in places with a high enough clue level to understand your value, hence you will be happier... Anyplace that is going to exclude you for a lack of paper, wouldn't appreciate you for your talents anyway. (in my experience)... As far as 'degrees mean you are capable of 'sticking with' something', I would think that a look at someone's employment history for the last 10 years or so would indicate that MUCH better than 4 years of sitting through outdated lectures... If your resume shows more than 4 jobs in the last 3 years (and you didn't get laid off), what does THAT stay about your ability to 'stick with' something? Yours in Networking, Paul A Flores

-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Christopher J. Wolff Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 13:16 To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Certification or College degrees? Was: RE: list problems?

I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd. I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test; however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers.

Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com

Andrew Dorsett said: *jumping on my soap box* I have to say that the idea of requiring a degree for the IT industry is obsurd.

I guess I've got a little bit of a mad on about this topic. Hit "D" now.  -------- floresp10@cox.net ("Paul A Flores") writes:

What you have to remember is that having a degree or certification allows the non-clue full out in the 'real' world to easily tell the difference between you and say, the world's smartest garbage man.

The trouble is, often times I'd rather hire the world's smartest garbage man. I never forget that when I got done interviewing for my first full time programming job I went back to my job fixing cars and pumping gas, and my fallback plan in case programming didn't work out was driving a tow truck (which paid better than either.) As it happens they hired me, and now my skills have atrophied to where I actually pay other people to fix my car since I don't grok all the new hoses and computer thingies they have now. -------- bicknell@ufp.org (Leo Bicknell) writes:

...

So what you're saying is, if I hadn't dropped out of high school during my 17th trip around Sol, I wouldn't've gotten stuck in this dead end job?

I said college provides those skills. I did not say college was the only way to get those skills. The converse is true as well, having those skills doesn't guarantee success.

Actually you said...

...

If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a theoretical group you are going to need the math and English backgrounds that college provides. ...

...and your use of the word "ever" is what cost me a higher score on the nanog all-time posting stats just released here. As of ten years ago, I've been assured by professional educators that I am up to snuff on the things one is supposed to learn from a masters' program. But before that I'd been completely self taught and there were enormous gaps in my knowledge -- yet the code and docs I wrote are in some cases still in production use, and I set and held records for operational uptime as what's now called a "sysadmin", and I'm having a lot of trouble relating any of that to the presence or absence of a degree or vendor certification. -------- bicknell@ufp.org (Leo Bicknell) also writes:

...

Cisco has done an excellent job @ brainwashing the IT community. The have (unfortunately) set the standard for "Network Engineers".

I'm biased, see .sig, but having been through the process, and seen what other vendors (eg, Microsoft, Novell) do with their programs I do believe that Cisco wants their certifications to mean something.

I'm also biased, but as I told you when you and I shared a reporting chain, I never held your CCIE against you since you'd demonstrated competence. I have met more CCIE's who were gibbering morons hiding their lack of skill behind their vendor certification thatn I have met CCIE's who, like you, probably ended up teaching the teacher a thing or two during "the process." In 1981 and '82 I worked for Golden Gate University, and part of my job was as a lab aid for COBOL and database students. A more earnest crew, I have never met. But I can assure you that 19 out of 20 of those students were going to come out of the program knowing exactly what was required to pass the tests and get a job, and not one speck more. Give me someone with the yearn to do and to know and to succeed, and I can plug them into the right team and get a hell of a lot more work done, than if you give me someone who has *only* the right letters after their name. Again, statistically speaking, CCIE has more often indicated moronhood than excellence, amongst those I have met. I forgave you yours, but only after watching you carefully for a couple of months to make sure that CCIE was an irrelevant accident in your case. -- Paul Vixie <vixie@eng.paix.net> President, PAIX.Net Inc.

On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 11:16:24AM -0700, Christopher J. Wolff wrote:

I would add to that statement: Requiring a technology certification is equally as obsurd.

I think you mean "absurd", a word you should have heard a lot by now.

I've been told I could pass the Emperor-Level CCIE test;

Emperor-Level CCIE? I don't even know where to go with that one.

however, I do not believe it will add more value for my customers.

Certifications exist to help those without the knowledge to verify for themselves decide if you have clue or if you are just bullshitting. Yes I have seen people with CCIEs who could barely route their way out of a paper bag, and I have seen people with no certifications who are more useful than 100 CCIEs put together. But as a whole, the system works fairly well, or companies would not put weight in Cisco certifications. They can also do a good job telling us the difference between someone who runs an actual network, vs say a hosting company located in a closet next to a legacy Global Crossing access pop in Tucson AZ, where they have a DS3 yet claim to have a national OC192 network, and who steals graphics from reputable companies like GX, EXDS, and CSCO. http://www.bblabs.com/highspeed.htm http://www.bblabs.com/data_center_picture.html http://www.bblabs.com/dedicated_server.htm -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)

Thus spake "Stephen Kowalchuk" <skowalchuk@diamonex.com>

Certification in the IT industry has become a nightmare because people who are less than clueful have abused it in the hiring and compensation processes.

Picture yourself as a job-seeker three years ago. Every recruiter you call hangs up on you because you don't have a CCNA. What's the obvious conclusion? CCNA == job. Try getting an accounting job without being a CPA; it's possible in some states, but it's not easy.

And industry certification is the worst of these offenders. Cisco, Microsoft and Novell (among others) have effectively created long-standing revenue streams out of the ridiculous complexity of their products. Some of that complexity is justified, without question. And some of it is deliberate to drive the need for "certified" professionals.

Perhaps Microsoft or Novell has done that, I can't speak to their practices. Cisco only created its certification programs at the request of customers. I've also never seen any evidence whatsoever that Cisco intentionally makes it products difficult to learn or use. If they end up that way, it's usually budgetary or time constraints.

A vicious cycle -- these "professionals" pay exhorbitant fees for 3-day or 5-day drench sessions where they come away with 1% retention and must be hired shortly thereafter to actually use anything they retained. Their expectation: high pay rates and a career track.

Seems like they're getting suckered by the training community (not Cisco, which doesn't do training).

The smart will get smarter, and the not-so-smart will get the shaft. Either way, the IT industry will milk it til there is no money in it, then move on. The cerificate-holder will be left with a lot of paper and marginally less social legitimacy out of it.

I think P.T. Barnum had something to say about that.

(1) the tendency for private companies to create their products in ways that bastardize open standards and create complex, proprietary systems in order to keep up barriers to competition;

What is one person's barrier to competition is another's first-to-market advantage or value-add. Standards committees are slow and the results often suck. If you built a router that only implemented RFCs in "Standard" status, you'd be about 10 years in the past on features, wouldn't interoperate with anyone on the market, and probably wouldn't sell a single unit. Is that the other vendors' fault?

If I were a Microsoft bridge builder, I know how to build bridges using Microsoft concrete and Microsoft cable, but unless it's all the same stuff I cannot apply my bridge- building skills to non-Microsoft venues.

It's interesting to note which industries use interchangeable products that provide uniform functionality vs. which use highly specialized proprietary systems. It's also interesting to observe the economic impacts to customers in each industry type. If you want uniform products across all vendors, that means you're going to get the lowest common denominator, and most of the "gotta have" features your favorite vendor has implemented will go away. Your entire business model might evaporate if it's based on one of these non-standard features.

The narrow scope of industry certification will be its undoing, unless one can create industry certifications that exemplify industry-wide best practices.

That's the goal of the higher-level Cisco certs. The lower-level ones are purely skills-based. S

On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 05:51:36PM -0400, skowalchuk@diamonex.com said: [snip]

The narrow scope of industry certification will be its undoing, unless one can create industry certifications that exemplify industry-wide best practices.

SAGE has just started a certification program that attempts to be interdisciplinary, but I suspect it will take some time before it becomes known and trusted. http://www.sagecert.org Of course, if you're not really a systems administrator, it may not apply to you ... -- Scott Francis darkuncle@ [home:] d a r k u n c l e . n e t Systems/Network Manager sfrancis@ [work:] t o n o s . c o m GPG public key 0xCB33CCA7 illum oportet crescere me autem minui

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Jim Hickstein wrote:

When I see a resume with more degrees than a thermometer, but even minor spelling, punctuation, or other such errors, I throw it out. Meticulous attention to detail matters a lot in this business.

I usually make a correction for nationality... a lot of people in the industry are not native English speakers. But the principle is quite valid. --vadim

On Wed, 22 May 2002, Leo Bicknell wrote:

If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a theoretical group you are going to need the math and English backgrounds that college provides. You may also need a deeper knowledge of hardware and software to understand a vendors limits, and work with them on appropriate solutions. You will need to be able to work on large projects, involving many people to do complex tasks, all part of what college can help you learn.

I really thought I was going to stay out of this, but I can't ignore this; sorry to those that are justifiably irritated by this thread: I'm not dismissing that a college education has real value, but let's keep it in perspective. Real-world example: I have only a few college credits. Since I'm almost 41, I don't see myself finding time to pursue it much further. My wife, on the other hand, just got her Phd from an Ivy League institution. I don't think anyone that knows us feels that she has a much better grasp of English or Math than I do. She has a *much* better grasp of her field (Sociology) than I will ever have, and I have a much better grasp of mine than she ever will. My point is this: There is no magic switch or metamorphosis that occurs when one gets a degree. It's an admirable achievement, but IMHO, no more so than starting an ISP from scratch and building it into a profitable business. I could easily make a case that the latter is a better "real world" lesson. It certainly is a better real world bread winner.

So, do you need a degree to get a job? Absolutely not. Can you make the same money initially without a degree, most likely. However, I suspect you'll find more often than not without one in 5 years you'll have gotten your 10% raise and still be a grunt, while your coworkers who had that preparation will have been moved up to roles with more responsibility, and significantly more money.

This is probably correct, unfortunately. That is why, after all is said and done, I would strongly encourage anyone who's started school to at least get a BA/BS. For real and perceived reasons, it leaves one with more options...and you won't need to haul around that big chip on your shoulder for the rest of your life, like I do. :=) James Smallacombe PlantageNet, Inc. CEO and Janitor up@3.am http://3.am =========================================================================

In message <3CEC183D.6FFAA207@onecall.net>, Richard Irving writes:

This PC and Internet revolution was founded by men with Advanced Degree's from Prominent Ivy League Colleges...

Well remember that the Internet revolution wasn't Bill's -- he's a follower. Now if he'd finished his Harvard degree in Applied Math, then, maybe... Harvard was an ARPANET site when he was there -- some of the more senior students used it Craig

bicknell@ufp.org (Leo Bicknell) writes:

If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a theoretical group you are going to need the math and English backgrounds that college provides. ...

So what you're saying is, if I hadn't dropped out of high school during my 17th trip around Sol, I wouldn't've gotten stuck in this dead end job? Probably I wouldn't have that honorary MSCS degree either. Wouldn't've wrote all that code, nor those RFC's, nor started those various companies. Wouldn't've found my various mentors nor been a mentor to any of the folks who count me as having been one? Is that how a college degree would have improved my career by age 39? Sounds like a bad deal to me. -- Paul Vixie <vixie@eng.paix.net> President, PAIX.Net Inc.

On Wed, May 22, 2002 at 08:20:08PM -0400, Leo Bicknell wrote:

What I firmly believe is that a college graduate is more likely to be sucessful and be promoted, particularly before they are 30. If I had to advise someone coming out of high school, I would tell them their best odds are to go to college. But it's all an odds game, sometimes you hit on 12 and bust, sometimes you hit on 19 and win.

All that matters it that you have the knowledge. It doesn't matter if you got it from school or from experience, just that you got it. If you don't want to learn, all the college in the world isn't going to help you. But if you love to learn new things, not going to college is not going to stop you either. Personally I think I've learned more over the last 4 years than any school is capable of teaching, but thats just me. Projecting your personal prejustices about what learning style works best upon others is neither smart nor productive. Can we all just leave it at that, and try to get back to something operational? -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)

On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 06:22:50AM -0700, Rachel K. Warren wrote: [ snip ]

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule - I've had managers and executive officers in the same companies I worked at who did not have degrees. But more often than not, the degree was there.

i was once taught that causation and correlation are different. -- Henry Yen Aegis Information Systems, Inc. Senior Systems Programmer Hicksville, New York

On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 03:00:20AM -0400, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:

At 02:42 PM 5/23/2002 -0400, Henry Yen wrote:

...

On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 06:22:50AM -0700, Rachel K. Warren wrote:

...

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule - I've had managers and executive officers in the same companies I worked at who did not have degrees. But more often than not, the degree was there.

i was once taught that causation and correlation are different.

Stating as fact a causation simply because of a correlation (e.g. degrees == promotion) is probably not a good idea without other evidence. However, lacking evidence or hypotheses to the contrary, it is not unreasonable to tentatively assume a causation given a strong correlation.

i don't disagree, but the your specific observation seems too broad for me. i've long deleted the original post, but ISTR that the OP's interest was in getting a network/engineering/related job, and the degree (no pun intended) to which having a formal college education might contribute toward that goal, at least in the short run. assuming that the companies to which this post refers are those which are in that situation (hiring good network people), the fact that the managers and executives at those companies "more often than not" had a degree is not necessarily more than a correlation. it doesn't speak to the issue of whether or not they are/were good network people. for instance, perhaps a degree is more useful to managers and executive officers than to network engineers. or perhaps people who get degrees strive more for those management positions than people who don't. or perhaps those companies tend to hire people with degrees more often than not, and this post shows that, but it doesn't necessarily relate to network engineering (i.e. maybe it's a less-than-useful holdover hiring practice, which is what many offshoots of this thread are discussing); perhaps the OP would be just as happy to be hired in a non-network-engineering- oriented position, but that's not the impression i got.

Assuming correlation and causation are completely unrelated is probably worse, since if there is a cause / effect relationship, correlation is bound to show up.

yes, but i didn't assume that. :)

Given that we *do* have other evidence (e.g. HR department which ask for degrees when hiring & promoting), why would it be wrong to make a leap such that "a degree will help more than it will hurt".

yes, i think it would be wrong. the "evidence" presented above is one person's experience, based on observations of "executive officers and managers" at places where she has worked. you could certainly say that a college degree will more likely than not lead to a position as an executive officer or manager (not necessarily network-related), especially if you tend to try to work for companies such as those quoted above. the "hurt" part presumably refers to the time (5+ per cent of your life), as well as the ten-thousands of dollars expenditure.

As one person said, all else being equal (as it frequently is), a degree (or certification) is a great way to differentiate yourself. Especially to the non-technical (like CFOs and HR departments).

i think it makes a bigger difference when one is young. i tend to believe that the differentiation lessens over time. as well, the opportunity to seriously and formally study computing/networking is "relatively" recent.

The interesting thing about this long (and sometimes interesting) thread which keeps appearing here every year or two is that people without degrees seem to have value experience only, while people with degrees have a relatively high opinion of experience and degrees.

it would be interesting to see the age distribution of these two groups.

IOW: The people who have been to college tend like it, those who have not, do not.

Of course, that is just a correlation, and not even a 100% correlation at that.

-- Henry Yen Aegis Information Systems, Inc. Senior Systems Programmer Hicksville, New York

Shawn, The claims that you make here are exactly why I went 100K in the hole at a private university chosen partially because they did not have a strong athletic program. And no, I did not have a rich daddy to pay for it. In my opinion, one of the best things you can do for your children is to provide a private education for them. Regards, Christopher J. Wolff, VP CIO Broadband Laboratories http://www.bblabs.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Shawn Solomon Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:07 PM To: Paul Vixie Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: list problems? no way... The option where you come out into "life" 35k in the hole, no experience, and four years behind your "collegues" is obviously better. And its hard to put a value on.. that bitterness you learned from spending the "best years of your life" with a bunch of rich, drunken dumbasses. The tolerence you gained from all those times your learning was decelerated, just to allow for johnny football star to meet status quo. The anger from seeing Johnny pull his head of his jock just long enough to see daddy hand him a 150k VP position. As mastercard sais.. priceless. And no, I'm not bitter.. -- Shawn Solomon Senior State Networks Engineer Indiana Telecommunications Network & IHETS INDnet 317.263.8875 www.ind.net fx: 317.263.8831 On 22 May 2002, Paul Vixie wrote:

bicknell@ufp.org (Leo Bicknell) writes:

...

If you ever want to become a team leader, or a manger, or run a theoretical group you are going to need the math and English backgrounds that college provides. ...

So what you're saying is, if I hadn't dropped out of high school during my 17th trip around Sol, I wouldn't've gotten stuck in this dead end job?

Probably I wouldn't have that honorary MSCS degree either. Wouldn't've wrote all that code, nor those RFC's, nor started those various companies.

Wouldn't've found my various mentors nor been a mentor to any of the folks who count me as having been one?

Is that how a college degree would have improved my career by age 39?

Sounds like a bad deal to me. -- Paul Vixie <vixie@eng.paix.net> President, PAIX.Net Inc.

...

"The fact that there are actually ways of knowing and characterizing the extent of one's ignorance, while still remaining ignorant, may ultimately be more interesting and useful to people than Yarkovsky"

That's just a fancy way of saying a Clint Eastwood line from one of his movies (Magnum Force?): "A man's gotta know his limitations." But, imho, it does provide the best summary and/or dismissal for the "Certification or College degrees?" thread. -mark kent, H.B.

On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 11:17:11AM -0500, Richard Irving wrote:

Einstein wouldn't have made it anywhere, without his background in Mathematics that he got from a Prominent Ivy League...

Oh...... Shoot, did it again.

Have you ever heard the expression "Flat World Thinking" ?

Einstein was a Hero to many a Kid, -because- he was self taught.

Einstein graduated from the prestigious Swiss Federal Polytechnic college in Zurich. His work on relativity was done afterward, at the Swiss Patent office, while folks at Harvard were still searching the Ether. A college degree is certainly not a prerequisite for intelligence, but can often provide inspiration, even if that takes the form of a dissatisfaction with the prevailing thinking. Cheers, rob

: : Richard Irving <rirving@onecall.net> : : : Note the expression "-background- in Mathematics". : : While Einstein -later- graduated from SFP, please realize that : that Einstein had problems in School... "Wild Duck" comes to mind, : but the end result was that he then later -Taught Himself- : Calculus and -then- Boot strapped himself into his future career. : : I still stand on the point. BTW, Benet had a degree or two, : as well... As does Vixie, now .... and Stallman. GAAH! #!$H$%#@!X&! This discussion has left the operational and entered the realm of baleful minutia and noxious ego-gratification. Please stop, or take it offline. Peace, Petr -- petr@mit.edu http://web.mit.edu/petr http://lids.mit.edu ____________________________________________________________ You can design simply, or you can design for simplicity. The first requires a fear of complexity only. The second requires an understanding of complexity. Choice is yours ------------------------------------------------------------

And remember, Einstein probably wasn't right:). I also recall that the popular myth that he failed math classes as a child is cincorrect. Hmm, if we're not careful our list will degrade from operational to my relativistic mass is bigger than your pc based relativistic mass:). On Fri, 24 May 2002, Robert Beverly wrote:

On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 11:17:11AM -0500, Richard Irving wrote:

...

Einstein wouldn't have made it anywhere, without his background in Mathematics that he got from a Prominent Ivy League...

Oh...... Shoot, did it again.

Have you ever heard the expression "Flat World Thinking" ?

Einstein was a Hero to many a Kid, -because- he was self taught.

Einstein graduated from the prestigious Swiss Federal Polytechnic college in Zurich. His work on relativity was done afterward, at the Swiss Patent office, while folks at Harvard were still searching the Ether.

A college degree is certainly not a prerequisite for intelligence, but can often provide inspiration, even if that takes the form of a dissatisfaction with the prevailing thinking.

Cheers,

rob

Richard Irving wrote:

Router#Conf t Router(config)# << Scott Granados wrote:

...

And remember, Einstein probably wasn't right:).

% Invalid input detected at '^' marker. Router(config)#

What, God -does- play dice ? ;)

Actually, yes, God does ;) (See Bell's theorum and its tests, which grew out of Einstein's attempt, known as EPR after the authors, to show that the uncertainty in quantum mechanics was not intrinsic, but instead only due to a lack of knowledge. This viewpoint is only tenable now if you throw out causality.) (General Relativity is another matter; so far it has passed every test.) Regards Marshall

...

I also recall that the popular myth that he failed math classes as a child is cincorrect.

Like I said, -=<*]Wild Duck[*>=-: =================================

Excerpt: Einstein hated the academic high school he was sent to in Munich, where success depended on memorization and obedience to arbitrary authority. His real studies were done at home with books on mathematics, physics, and philosophy. A teacher suggested Einstein leave school, since his very presence destroyed the other students' respect for the teacher.

http://www.aip.org/history/einstein/early1.htm

Except: But he was an independent thinker and hated the regimentation of the German school system. To Albert, schools were like barracks and teachers like military commanders.

http://myhero.com/hero.asp?hero=einstein

Excerpt: The strict discipline of German schools did not appeal to the young Einstein, who was a poor student but conducted his own studies of philosophy, math, and science.

Excerpt: Albert stayed behind to continue his studies, but soon left school with no diploma to rejoin his family. He continued his independent studies, teaching himself calculus and higher scientific principles.

http://search.biography.com/print_record.pl?id=14539

Excerpt : He studied mathematics and physics at the Swiss Polytechnic Institute in Zurich. He constantly failed math.

http://www.norfacad.pvt.k12.va.us/project/einstein/History.htm

Excerpt: In 1894 Einstein's family moved to Milan but Einstein remained in Munich. In 1895 Einstein failed an examination that would have allowed him to study for a diploma as an electrical engineer at the Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule in Zurich.

By mid 1901 he had a temporary job as a teacher, teaching mathematics at the Technical High School in Winterthur. Around this time he wrote:-

"I have given up the ambition to get to a university ... "

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Einstein.html

And Finally, in his own words, Excerpt:

"Mistrust of every kind of authority grew out of this experience, a skeptical attitude toward the convictions that were alive in any specific social environment-an attitude that has never again left me, even though, later on, it has been tempered by a better insight into the causal connections. "

http://www.stcloud.msus.edu/~lesikar/einstein/freethink.html

Lets -not- rewrite history to appease the "Moral Majority",

Who are most likely NEITHER. ======================================================== <LURK P-L-E-A-S-E... PRETTY PLEASE... Aww... C'mon>

...

Hmm, if we're not careful our list will degrade from operational to my relativistic mass is bigger than your pc based relativistic mass:).

On Fri, 24 May 2002, Robert Beverly wrote:

...

On Thu, May 23, 2002 at 11:17:11AM -0500, Richard Irving wrote:

...

Einstein wouldn't have made it anywhere, without his background in Mathematics that he got from a Prominent Ivy League...

Oh...... Shoot, did it again.

Have you ever heard the expression "Flat World Thinking" ?

Einstein was a Hero to many a Kid, -because- he was self taught.

Einstein graduated from the prestigious Swiss Federal Polytechnic college in Zurich. His work on relativity was done afterward, at the Swiss Patent office, while folks at Harvard were still searching the Ether.

A college degree is certainly not a prerequisite for intelligence, but can often provide inspiration, even if that takes the form of a dissatisfaction with the prevailing thinking.

Cheers,

rob

-- Regards Marshall Eubanks This e-mail may contain confidential and proprietary information of Multicast Technologies, Inc, subject to Non-Disclosure Agreements T.M. Eubanks Multicast Technologies, Inc 10301 Democracy Lane, Suite 410 Fairfax, Virginia 22030 Phone : 703-293-9624 Fax : 703-293-9609 e-mail : tme@multicasttech.com http://www.multicasttech.com Test your network for multicast : http://www.multicasttech.com/mt/ Status of Multicast on the Web : http://www.multicasttech.com/status/index.html