[JC Wrote] A more cynical view The cynic in me wonders how they will track how many people I forwarded this to. I plan to win the prize for "the person who refers the survey to the most number of people" by forwarding it to millions of people. :-) (I suspect that the prize will be won by the person who others (who take the survey) claim referred them to the survey, which is different from the criteria set for the prize.) Hi JC, Sorry i missed seeing your message. The survey has a field to enter "Referred by". So the people you forward the link to will use your name in the "Referred by" field. You are right that we rely on the people filling out the survey to be honest in specifying who referred them. Hopefully, that would be the case as emails are forwarded by people to their trusted contacts. Thanks, Arch ________________________________________ From: nanog-request@nanog.org [nanog-request@nanog.org] Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 8:52 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: NANOG Digest, Vol 40, Issue 103 Send NANOG mailing list submissions to nanog@nanog.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nanog-request@nanog.org You can reach the person managing the list at nanog-owner@nanog.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of NANOG digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Contention/Oversubscription maths (Adam Armstrong) 2. Re: Ham Radio Networking (was Re: Rogers Canada using 7.0.0.0/8 for internal address space) (William Allen Simpson) 3. Re: Contention/Oversubscription maths (Jay Ashworth) 4. Re: IT Survey Request: Win an iPad2 or Kindle! (Michael Holstein) 5. Re: Contention/Oversubscription maths (Jay Ashworth) 6. Re: Contention/Oversubscription maths (Shaun Bryant) 7. Re: Contention/Oversubscription maths (Adam Armstrong) 8. Re: IT Survey Request: Win an iPad2 or Kindle! (Steven Bellovin) 9. Re: IT Survey Request: Win an iPad2 or Kindle! (JC Dill) 10. Re: IT Survey Request: Win an iPad2 or Kindle! (Scott Brim) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 14:45:28 +0100 From: Adam Armstrong <lists@memetic.org> Subject: Re: Contention/Oversubscription maths To: Jacob Broussard <shadowedstranger@gmail.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Message-ID: <4DDFAAF8.2080909@memetic.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 27/05/2011 14:40, Jacob Broussard wrote:

We offer peak speeds of 4mbps, and we have an extrordinary amount of people using (abusing as some would say) streaming video for many hours of the day causing headaches for us. You probably would be safe to assume that you can use a higher ratio for your higher speeds as there will be fewer people that can take advantage of the full connection speed.

This is pretty much what I expect. If you give a 4Mbit user 40Mbit, he tends not to even be able to use 10 times as much, so we can get away with much higher ratios. Statistics and graphs i've seen offlist have been very helpful, and suggest that 1000 100mbit customers is doable on 1GE. Atleast, today. Next year's (decade?) launch of the YouView platform in the UK should increase usage a lot, not to mention a service like Netflix starting in the UK. We have some movie streaming services, but they generally suck and are quite low bitrate. Thanks for the thoughts :D adam. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 10:00:20 -0400 From: William Allen Simpson <william.allen.simpson@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Ham Radio Networking (was Re: Rogers Canada using 7.0.0.0/8 for internal address space) To: nanog@nanog.org Message-ID: <4DDFAE74.5000901@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 5/26/11 11:23 PM, David Conrad wrote:

On May 26, 2011, at 5:14 PM, Wil Schultz wrote:

...

...

Out of curiosity, is there an IPv6 stack for ham devices? Well there's a loaded question. ... I won't say that there aren't "ham devices" with an IP stack built in, but I think we're talking about different layers here.

Sorry, poorly worded. What I was wondering is there is an equivalent of KA9Q for IPv6. I believe one of the comments we got back when we were trying to reclaim 44/8 was that folks couldn't migrate to IPv6 because no software was available...

Well, I wrote a lot of the original IPv6 stuff (back when it was PIPE -> SIP -> SIPP) for KA9Q, have the source around here somewhere.... But now I'd just use Linux. Alan Cox ported the KA9Q AX25 code long ago. Since everybody and his brother is coming out of the woodwork -- sadly, I've not done any AX25 since my grandfather Marvin Allen Maten (W8TQP) died; that was one of the things we did together. Although he was a ham since circa 1916, he was always wanting to try the latest! His QSL contacts went back so far, he knew Hugo Gernsback and his brother (who actually ran the electronics store). ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 10:23:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Subject: Re: Contention/Oversubscription maths To: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <26560069.836.1306506184408.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 ----- Original Message -----

From: "Adam Armstrong" <lists@memetic.org>

I'm more interested in the levels of traffic that we will see consistently.

You're planning to engage in Statistical Multiplexing, or what I've always termed "bandwidth surfing": how hard can I oversubscribe my uplink without pissing off the paying customers? As others have suggested, it depends on quite a number of things, primarily: whether you're offering an SLA to the customers or not. Whether you have a caching proxy or not and which CDNs you solicit to provision your node are also big factors, of course. In the final analysis, though, it depends on the customer class. Residence customers will tolerate a lot more oversubscription than business, enterprise, and server going on down the list of oversubscription, but happily *up* the list of "how much can I charge". Remember that QoS and load shaping don't work all that will across the internet at large, but they work pretty decently inside a single switch; you can prioritize customers who are willing to pay extra for it. The problem is similar to airline bookings; it is possible, in the immortal words of Dave Barry, to envision a situation -- this will happen in your lifetime -- where no two customers pay exactly the same price. :-) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 10:24:22 -0400 From: Michael Holstein <michael.holstein@csuohio.edu> Subject: Re: IT Survey Request: Win an iPad2 or Kindle! To: "Sunder Rajan, Archana Devi" <archana.devi.sunder.rajan.2011@anderson.ucla.edu> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <4DDFB416.6040808@csuohio.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I am a student at UCLA Anderson School of Managment and my MBA field study team is working on a research that involves conducting a survey of CIOs, IT Managers/Administrators, IT Engineers to understand challenges in managing IT infrastructure.

Could you please help by filling out this really short survey?

A more cynical view would be as an MBA student, you're researching cheaper ways to recruit contact information and current projects. A kindle is $139 .. that's pretty cheap for a list of people/projects considering what that lead information is worth to vendors of the "solutions" to the challenges you ask about. Regards, Michael Holstein Cleveland State University ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 10:28:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Jay Ashworth <jra@baylink.com> Subject: Re: Contention/Oversubscription maths To: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <14894863.840.1306506521760.JavaMail.root@benjamin.baylink.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 ----- Original Message -----

From: "Adam Armstrong" <lists@memetic.org>

Statistics and graphs i've seen offlist have been very helpful, and suggest that 1000 100mbit customers is doable on 1GE.

Probably.

Atleast, today. Next year's (decade?) launch of the YouView platform in the UK should increase usage a lot, not to mention a service like Netflix starting in the UK. We have some movie streaming services, but they generally suck and are quite low bitrate.

The short version is: if you oversubscribe, you *will* eventually have Busy Hours, just like telcos. The question is: how often. Telcos have books that tell them this... Cheers, -- jr 'Royal Wedding' a -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274 ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 08:49:45 -0600 From: Shaun Bryant <sbryant@thepit.org> Subject: Re: Contention/Oversubscription maths To: lists@memetic.org Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <BANLkTimS7XF-y+5o3V4ZuwoKNOdOVV5z_Q@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I run a WISP, where we have moved customers from 3mb/s to 8mb/s to 20mb/s over the course of 5 years. We do this one tower at a time (about 150 customers) what we have learned is usage grows overtime not with the increase in available bandwidth. Our Per-Customer-Avg (PCA) stayed about the same with each bump in bandwidth, the avg user does not use more bandwidth because they have more bandwidth or at least not our 1200 customers. That said we have had our PCA move up more then 30% in the last 7 months due mainly to Netflix, the nice thing is this usage is "off peak" for our business customers and as such has not been a concern. Shaun Shaun Bryant sbryant@thepit.org ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 15:52:08 +0100 From: Adam Armstrong <lists@memetic.org> Subject: Re: Contention/Oversubscription maths To: Shaun Bryant <sbryant@thepit.org> Cc: NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <4DDFBA98.20307@memetic.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 27/05/2011 15:49, Shaun Bryant wrote:

I run a WISP, where we have moved customers from 3mb/s to 8mb/s to 20mb/s over the course of 5 years. We do this one tower at a time (about 150 customers) what we have learned is usage grows overtime not with the increase in available bandwidth. Our Per-Customer-Avg (PCA) stayed about the same with each bump in bandwidth, the avg user does not use more bandwidth because they have more bandwidth or at least not our 1200 customers.

That said we have had our PCA move up more then 30% in the last 7 months due mainly to Netflix, the nice thing is this usage is "off peak" for our business customers and as such has not been a concern.

Yeah, I fully expect this. In previous networks I've generally seen a doubling of traffic every 12 months. Generally the traffic is static during spring/summer, and then doubles over 6 months in autumn/winter. Though, I'm not sure how this will manifest itself with such high access speeds. adam. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 11:14:47 -0400 From: Steven Bellovin <smb@cs.columbia.edu> Subject: Re: IT Survey Request: Win an iPad2 or Kindle! To: Michael Holstein <michael.holstein@csuohio.edu> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org>, "Sunder Rajan, Archana Devi" <archana.devi.sunder.rajan.2011@anderson.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <BC90DBDF-6AE0-494A-96DB-EA84796C018A@cs.columbia.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On May 27, 2011, at 10:24 22AM, Michael Holstein wrote:

...

I am a student at UCLA Anderson School of Managment and my MBA field study team is working on a research that involves conducting a survey of CIOs, IT Managers/Administrators, IT Engineers to understand challenges in managing IT infrastructure.

Could you please help by filling out this really short survey?

A more cynical view would be as an MBA student, you're researching cheaper ways to recruit contact information and current projects. A kindle is $139 .. that's pretty cheap for a list of people/projects considering what that lead information is worth to vendors of the "solutions" to the challenges you ask about.

I know nothing of this student, the school, or the study. I will say -- as an academic who frequently does research involving human subjects, generally including surveys -- that this is a very normal way to proceed. Finding enough subjects is always hard; it's the single biggest obstacle we encounter. Paying people is the usual approach, but for a group like this, the usual nominal amount we pay undergrads ($10-25) isn't enough. Other common approaches -- flyers all over campus, offers on Mechanical Turk, ads on Facebook or Google Adwords, etc. -- won't work if you're trying to get people with specialized knowledge or skills. What's left? I might add that by federal law, all government-funded research involving human subjects has to be approved by an "IRB" -- an Institutional Review Board -- and many universities (including my own) impose that requirement on all research, even if no federal funds are involved. While it's certainly not rare to do studies that involve (initial) deceit of the subjects (you want them reacting normally, rather than giving the answers they think you want), the IRB has to see the full protocol and experiment design. You may be right, of course; I can't say. I haven't contacted the student's professor nor have I asked to see the IRB protocol. Given that any legitimate study of this type would be conducted along the lines explained in the original post, I'd say that the burden of proof is on you. (Of course, as a security guy I know full well that that notion of "normal behavior" is the best way to hide an attack.) References: http://www.usenix.org/events/upsec08/tech/full_papers/garfinkel/garfinkel.pd... https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/wecsr2011-irb.pdf --Steve Bellovin, https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 08:38:39 -0700 From: JC Dill <jcdill.lists@gmail.com> Subject: Re: IT Survey Request: Win an iPad2 or Kindle! To: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <4DDFC57F.2030900@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 27/05/11 7:24 AM, Michael Holstein wrote:

...

I am a student at UCLA Anderson School of Managment and my MBA field study team is working on a research that involves conducting a survey of CIOs, IT Managers/Administrators, IT Engineers to understand challenges in managing IT infrastructure.

Could you please help by filling out this really short survey?

A more cynical view

The cynic in me wonders how they will track how many people I forwarded this to. I plan to win the prize for "the person who refers the survey to the most number of people" by forwarding it to millions of people. :-) (I suspect that the prize will be won by the person who others (who take the survey) claim referred them to the survey, which is different from the criteria set for the prize.) jc ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 11:52:20 -0400 From: Scott Brim <scott.brim@gmail.com> Subject: Re: IT Survey Request: Win an iPad2 or Kindle! To: JC Dill <jcdill.lists@gmail.com> Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <BANLkTi=LE2KOcK8EG7imX1PJ3-W4usvAqg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 11:38, JC Dill <jcdill.lists@gmail.com> wrote:

The cynic in me wonders how they will track how many people I forwarded this to. I plan to win the prize for "the person who refers the survey to the most number of people" by forwarding it to millions of people. ?:-)

(I suspect that the prize will be won by the person who others (who take the survey) claim referred them to the survey, which is different from the criteria set for the prize.)

If you'll say that I'm the one who referred you, I'll enter you in a drawing for a free iPad. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ NANOG mailing list NANOG@nanog.org https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog End of NANOG Digest, Vol 40, Issue 103 **************************************