Traffic ratio of an ISP
Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound: Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers. I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> wrote:
Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy. Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button). Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment. Best regards, Martijn On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers. I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu<mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound: Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net - Martijn Schmidt <martijnschmidt@i3d.net> wrote:
It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy.
Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button).
Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment.
Best regards, Martijn
On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers.
I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> wrote:
Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net - Martijn Schmidt < martijnschmidt@i3d.net> wrote:
It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy.
Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button).
Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment.
Best regards, Martijn
On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers.
I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> wrote:
Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Josh, That’s great. I’m assuming your traffic is mainly inbound. So, my question is, do you have a threshold that defines your traffic ratio type. I’m taking an example from this thread. Say, your average incoming traffic is ~45 gbps, and outgoing traffic is ~4.5 gbps. So, your outbound:inbound = 1:10. What are you? Heavy Inbound? Extending this example, if your ratio is 1:7 or 1:6, then, what would you claim to be? A ‘Mostly Inbound’? Or still call yourself as Heavy Inbound? I’m just trying to understand what is the community practice? Thank you. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 4:23 PM, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ <https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/>
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net <http://i3d.net/> - Martijn Schmidt <martijnschmidt@i3d.net <mailto:martijnschmidt@i3d.net>> wrote:
It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy.
Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button).
Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment.
Best regards, Martijn
On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote: If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers.
I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
The problem you're running into, Prasun, is that people either aren't actually reading what you're saying or have poor comprehension skills. Very few people are directly addressing what you're asking. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prasun Dey" <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> To: "Josh Luthman" <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:42:38 PM Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP Josh, That’s great. I’m assuming your traffic is mainly inbound. So, my question is, do you have a threshold that defines your traffic ratio type. I’m taking an example from this thread. Say, your average incoming traffic is ~45 gbps, and outgoing traffic is ~4.5 gbps. So, your outbound:inbound = 1:10. What are you? Heavy Inbound? Extending this example, if your ratio is 1:7 or 1:6, then, what would you claim to be? A ‘Mostly Inbound’? Or still call yourself as Heavy Inbound? I’m just trying to understand what is the community practice? Thank you. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ On Jun 19, 2019, at 4:23 PM, Josh Luthman < josh@imaginenetworksllc.com > wrote:
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey < prasun@nevada.unr.edu > wrote: <blockquote> Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ <blockquote> On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net - Martijn Schmidt < martijnschmidt@i3d.net > wrote: It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy. Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button). Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment. Best regards, Martijn On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman < josh@imaginenetworksllc.com > wrote: <blockquote> If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers. I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey < prasun@nevada.unr.edu > wrote: <blockquote> Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound: Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida. </blockquote> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. </blockquote> </blockquote> </blockquote>
On 6/20/19 7:16 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:
The problem you're running into, Prasun, is that people either aren't actually reading what you're saying or have poor comprehension skills. Very few people are directly addressing what you're asking.
A good question would be, who actually cares about ratios in the year 2019? Does anyone still calculate them and use them to decide anything? If so, why does it matter?
On 20/Jun/19 16:46, Seth Mattinen wrote:
A good question would be, who actually cares about ratios in the year 2019? Does anyone still calculate them and use them to decide anything? If so, why does it matter?
We never have. I find the exercise pointless. In fact, more than 90% of the time that I have come across the ratio discussion has not been from engineers, but rather, sales people that think they know a lot more about peering than peering co-ordinators. A large ISP somewhere between France and Poland comes to memory... Mark.
Dear Mike, Regardless of very few direct answers, I found this discussion very interesting. I think one possible reason for not having any specific numbers, as some members have already pointed out, is there doesn’t exist any. As an outsider, with zero hands-on experience in ISP field apart from studying, my understanding is, ISPs just visualize their own traffic using monitoring tools and label themselves. I wish there were any literature on this topic. I’d love to read that. Thank you for your reply. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 20, 2019, at 10:16 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
The problem you're running into, Prasun, is that people either aren't actually reading what you're saying or have poor comprehension skills. Very few people are directly addressing what you're asking.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
From: "Prasun Dey" <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> To: "Josh Luthman" <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:42:38 PM Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
Josh, That’s great. I’m assuming your traffic is mainly inbound. So, my question is, do you have a threshold that defines your traffic ratio type. I’m taking an example from this thread. Say, your average incoming traffic is ~45 gbps, and outgoing traffic is ~4.5 gbps. So, your outbound:inbound = 1:10. What are you? Heavy Inbound? Extending this example, if your ratio is 1:7 or 1:6, then, what would you claim to be? A ‘Mostly Inbound’? Or still call yourself as Heavy Inbound? I’m just trying to understand what is the community practice? Thank you.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 4:23 PM, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> wrote: Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net - Martijn Schmidt <martijnschmidt@i3d.net> wrote:
It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy.
Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button).
Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment.
Best regards, Martijn
On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers.
I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> wrote: Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
[cid:image001.png@01D526B7.B99D6BB0] From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:24 PM To: Prasun Dey Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu<mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net<http://i3D.net> - Martijn Schmidt <martijnschmidt@i3d.net<mailto:martijnschmidt@i3d.net>> wrote: It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy. Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button). Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment. Best regards, Martijn On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote: If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers. I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu<mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound: Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. E-MAIL CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited.
Seems you just have updated today. Thanks for letting us know. Last time, I checked was yesterday and based on that I mentioned your traffic ratio being ‘Balanced’. Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Knopps, Brian <Brian.Knopps@charter.com> wrote:
<image001.png>
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:24 PM To: Prasun Dey Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ <https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/>
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net <http://i3d.net/> - Martijn Schmidt <martijnschmidt@i3d.net <mailto:martijnschmidt@i3d.net>> wrote:
It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy.
Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button).
Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment.
Best regards, Martijn
On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote: If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers.
I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited.
Hi Prasun, It was updated because ‘Balanced’ wasn’t accurate, we didn’t notice that’s what it said until you pointed it out, because it really don’t matter in the whole scheme of things. In regards to:
So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound.
As a residential ISP, we are an eyeball network, we connect to the people using the content on the internet (of course with commercial customers also who host content, but mainly residential). Because of the nature of the users on our network, we are considered Heavy Inbound since most traffic will be going from content providers to users on our network. It’s really as simple as that, we do no calculation to figure out our traffic ratio and update according to some arbitrary ratio number, because none of that matters. That field in PeeringDB is used as additional information for someone who may look at the ASN and try to determine what to expect in general if connecting to them. TL;DR - There are no hard numbers to give you, it just depends how someone feels that day of the week when setting it. Hope this helps. From: Prasun Dey [mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 4:08 PM To: Knopps, Brian; Peering Cc: Josh Luthman; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP Seems you just have updated today. Thanks for letting us know. Last time, I checked was yesterday and based on that I mentioned your traffic ratio being ‘Balanced’. Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ On Jun 19, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Knopps, Brian <Brian.Knopps@charter.com<mailto:Brian.Knopps@charter.com>> wrote: <image001.png> From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:24 PM To: Prasun Dey Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu<mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net<http://i3d.net/> - Martijn Schmidt <martijnschmidt@i3d.net<mailto:martijnschmidt@i3d.net>> wrote: It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy. Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button). Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment. Best regards, Martijn On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote: If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers. I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu<mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound: Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. E-MAIL CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited.
Thank you Steller, Your response is extremely helpful. I really appreciate your detailed explanation. While I was looking for these numbers, I couldn’t find any. I thought, as an outsider, these numbers may not be accessible for me. And, as I don’t own an AS, so, I can’t be a member of PeeringDB! Instead I thought, why don’t I ask for your help directly to get a proper guidance. And, this discussion certainly helped me. Thank you again. On a separate note, I’m happy that my mail drew your attention to update in the PeeringDB. Don’t know if it matters at all! - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 5:30 PM, Steller, Anthony J <Anthony.Steller@charter.com> wrote:
Hi Prasun,
It was updated because ‘Balanced’ wasn’t accurate, we didn’t notice that’s what it said until you pointed it out, because it really don’t matter in the whole scheme of things. In regards to:
So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound.
As a residential ISP, we are an eyeball network, we connect to the people using the content on the internet (of course with commercial customers also who host content, but mainly residential). Because of the nature of the users on our network, we are considered Heavy Inbound since most traffic will be going from content providers to users on our network. It’s really as simple as that, we do no calculation to figure out our traffic ratio and update according to some arbitrary ratio number, because none of that matters. That field in PeeringDB is used as additional information for someone who may look at the ASN and try to determine what to expect in general if connecting to them.
TL;DR - There are no hard numbers to give you, it just depends how someone feels that day of the week when setting it.
Hope this helps.
From: Prasun Dey [mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 4:08 PM To: Knopps, Brian; Peering Cc: Josh Luthman; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
Seems you just have updated today. Thanks for letting us know. Last time, I checked was yesterday and based on that I mentioned your traffic ratio being ‘Balanced’.
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ <https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/>
On Jun 19, 2019, at 4:57 PM, Knopps, Brian <Brian.Knopps@charter.com <mailto:Brian.Knopps@charter.com>> wrote:
<image001.png>
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org <mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org>] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:24 PM To: Prasun Dey Cc: nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ <https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/>
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net <http://i3d.net/> - Martijn Schmidt <martijnschmidt@i3d.net <mailto:martijnschmidt@i3d.net>> wrote:
It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy.
Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button).
Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment.
Best regards, Martijn
On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote: If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers.
I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited.
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply e-mail and then delete this message and any attachments. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, copying, or storage of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited.
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:21 PM Steller, Anthony J <Anthony.Steller@charter.com> wrote:
because it really don’t matter in the whole scheme of things.
Indeed, it doesn't matter. The "traffic ratio" field in PeeringDB probably should be deprecated, there is no formal definition nor is are there any operational consequences to changing the contents of that field. The contents of the field are entirely arbitrary. If the traffic ratio is relevant (I am not saying it is or isn't), such traffic ratios probably should be viewed in exclusively in context of specific ASN pairings. Maybe between you and me we'll see the dominant traffic direction being one way, and with another ASN pairing we see the opposite. There is no telling other than through observation, any such observations are unlikely to be shared with the general public. Kind regards, Job
Hi Job, While doing some study, I recently came across this https://drpeering.net/white-papers/The-Folly-Of-Peering-Ratios.html This discussion was from from a Nanog meeting that took place a long time ago. This made me interested to know whether there is some actual numbers behind those PeeringDB traffic ratio labels. I think your comment on the importance of traffic ratio for a specific ASN pairing is spot on. Those information are confidential, and rightly to be so. All I wanted to know how much traffic a provider handles (receives vs. delivers), regardless of its business type. As other members have also mentioned, general consensus is, CPs are outbound, while transits are Balanced. I was wondering if there is some publicly available information about this labels. But, seems like these are more like generic information and their impact is very small in real life while ISPs decide to peer. Thank you for your response. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 20, 2019, at 10:27 AM, Job Snijders <job@instituut.net> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:21 PM Steller, Anthony J <Anthony.Steller@charter.com> wrote:
because it really don’t matter in the whole scheme of things.
Indeed, it doesn't matter. The "traffic ratio" field in PeeringDB probably should be deprecated, there is no formal definition nor is are there any operational consequences to changing the contents of that field. The contents of the field are entirely arbitrary.
If the traffic ratio is relevant (I am not saying it is or isn't), such traffic ratios probably should be viewed in exclusively in context of specific ASN pairings. Maybe between you and me we'll see the dominant traffic direction being one way, and with another ASN pairing we see the opposite. There is no telling other than through observation, any such observations are unlikely to be shared with the general public.
Kind regards,
Job
On 19/Jun/19 23:30, Steller, Anthony J wrote:
TL;DR - There are no hard numbers to give you, it just depends how someone feels that day of the week when setting it.
Not surprising if some use it as a way to separate peers that have the stamina from those that don't :-). For those that have the stamina, another process awaits them :-)... Mark.
Yes, you seem to misunderstand (at least of what I understand). PeeringDB has categories of ratios to choose from. What has the community decided is acceptable ratios for each category? It's fairly trivial for any network to determine what their ratio is as a number, but not necessarily as a PeeringDB label. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Luthman" <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> To: "Prasun Dey" <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:23:33 PM Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey < prasun@nevada.unr.edu > wrote: Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ <blockquote> On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net - Martijn Schmidt < martijnschmidt@i3d.net > wrote: It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy. Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button). Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment. Best regards, Martijn On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman < josh@imaginenetworksllc.com > wrote: <blockquote> If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers. I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey < prasun@nevada.unr.edu > wrote: <blockquote> Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound: Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida. </blockquote> -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. </blockquote> </blockquote>
Thank you, Mike. From an outsider, I don’t have any information of an ISP’s traffic numbers. And this may be confidential unless we are using any measurement platform, which CAIDA is doing. To get a rough idea about any ISP’s traffic outbound:inbound ratio I can only see it's PeeringDB label. But, the question is whether there is any community decided values against these labels? Like, 1:2 = Balanced 1:5 = Mostly Inbound 1:10 = Heavy Inbound 10:1 = Heavy Outbound I just came up with these values. They don’t mean anything. I don’t have any solid evidence or source to support them. So, my question is, what people actually use? Or, it totally depends on the ISPs and they vary. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Yes, you seem to misunderstand (at least of what I understand). PeeringDB has categories of ratios to choose from. What has the community decided is acceptable ratios for each category? It's fairly trivial for any network to determine what their ratio is as a number, but not necessarily as a PeeringDB label.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> From: "Josh Luthman" <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> To: "Prasun Dey" <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:23:33 PM Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/ <https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/>
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net <http://i3d.net/> - Martijn Schmidt <martijnschmidt@i3d.net <mailto:martijnschmidt@i3d.net>> wrote:
It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy.
Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button).
Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment.
Best regards, Martijn
On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote: If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers.
I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote: Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Why would you think that "Heavy Inbound" signifies a greater inbound:oubound ratio compared to "Mostly Inbound"? To me "Heavy Inbound" means that there is more inbound than outbound and "Mostly Inbound" means exactly that -- mostly/usually/exclusively inbound with the occasional outbound byte or two. --- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Prasun Dey Sent: Wednesday, 19 June, 2019 15:33 To: Mike Hammett Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
Thank you, Mike. From an outsider, I don’t have any information of an ISP’s traffic numbers. And this may be confidential unless we are using any measurement platform, which CAIDA is doing. To get a rough idea about any ISP’s traffic outbound:inbound ratio I can only see it's PeeringDB label. But, the question is whether there is any community decided values against these labels? Like, 1:2 = Balanced 1:5 = Mostly Inbound 1:10 = Heavy Inbound 10:1 = Heavy Outbound I just came up with these values. They don’t mean anything. I don’t have any solid evidence or source to support them. So, my question is, what people actually use? Or, it totally depends on the ISPs and they vary.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Yes, you seem to misunderstand (at least of what I understand). PeeringDB has categories of ratios to choose from. What has the community decided is acceptable ratios for each category? It's fairly trivial for any network to determine what their ratio is as a number, but not necessarily as a PeeringDB label.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
________________________________
From: "Josh Luthman" <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> To: "Prasun Dey" <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:23:33 PM Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> wrote:
Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net <http://i3d.net/> - Martijn Schmidt <martijnschmidt@i3d.net> wrote:
It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy.
Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button).
Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment.
Best regards, Martijn
On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers.
I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> wrote:
Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun --
Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Hi Keith, Honestly? I don’t! I have never worked with an ISP or similar. If I ever get the chance, that would be exciting. Until then, I think this platform is one of the best places where I can get the answer from the people who has first-hand experience in this field. Your classification is also interesting. I’d love to know if this is how people classify their networks. Thanks for sharing your observations. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 20, 2019, at 12:21 PM, Keith Medcalf <kmedcalf@dessus.com> wrote:
Why would you think that "Heavy Inbound" signifies a greater inbound:oubound ratio compared to "Mostly Inbound"?
To me "Heavy Inbound" means that there is more inbound than outbound and "Mostly Inbound" means exactly that -- mostly/usually/exclusively inbound with the occasional outbound byte or two.
--- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Prasun Dey Sent: Wednesday, 19 June, 2019 15:33 To: Mike Hammett Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
Thank you, Mike. From an outsider, I don’t have any information of an ISP’s traffic numbers. And this may be confidential unless we are using any measurement platform, which CAIDA is doing. To get a rough idea about any ISP’s traffic outbound:inbound ratio I can only see it's PeeringDB label. But, the question is whether there is any community decided values against these labels? Like, 1:2 = Balanced 1:5 = Mostly Inbound 1:10 = Heavy Inbound 10:1 = Heavy Outbound I just came up with these values. They don’t mean anything. I don’t have any solid evidence or source to support them. So, my question is, what people actually use? Or, it totally depends on the ISPs and they vary.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 5:18 PM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
Yes, you seem to misunderstand (at least of what I understand). PeeringDB has categories of ratios to choose from. What has the community decided is acceptable ratios for each category? It's fairly trivial for any network to determine what their ratio is as a number, but not necessarily as a PeeringDB label.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
________________________________
From: "Josh Luthman" <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> To: "Prasun Dey" <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2019 3:23:33 PM Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)
Maybe I'm missing something but it's as simple as looking at the interface graphs. We see a whole lot of green for inbound and a little little blue line for outbound. We are an ISP with residential and commercial customers.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:20 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> wrote:
Hi Martijn and Josh, Thank you for your detailed explanation. Let me explain my requirement so that you may help me better. According to PeeringDB, Charter (Access), Sprint (Transit), Amazon (Content) all three of them are ‘Balanced’. While, Cable One, an Access ISP says it is Heavy Inbound, while Akamai, Netflix (Content) are Heavy Outbound. On the other hand, Cox, another access ISP, it says that it is Mostly Inbound. So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound. Please ignore my lack of knowledge in this area. I’m sorry I should’ve done a better job in formulating my question earlier. Thank you.
- Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:13 PM, i3D.net <http://i3d.net/> - Martijn Schmidt <martijnschmidt@i3d.net> wrote:
It kinda depends on the application that's being used. For example, videogaming has a ratio somewhere around 1:2.5 since you're only transmitting metadata about the players environment across the wire. The actual video is typically rendered at the end user's side. So it's not very bandwidth heavy.
Compare that with a videostream (watching a movie or TV series) and you're pumping the rendered video across the wire, so there's a very different ratio. Your return path traffic would pretty much consist of control stuff only (like pushing the pause button).
Some networks are dedicated to serving one type of content, whereas others might have a blend of different kinds of content. Same story for an access network geared to business users which want to use emails and such, vs residential end users looking for the evening's entertainment.
Best regards, Martijn
On 19 June 2019 19:54:45 CEST, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
If you're asking an ISP, consumers will always be inbound. It's the end user. The outbound would be where the information is coming from, like data centers.
I'm not sure you're going to get any better answer without a more specific question.
Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 12:50 PM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> wrote:
Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun --
Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
-- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
* nanog@ics-il.net (Mike Hammett) [Wed 19 Jun 2019, 23:19 CEST]:
PeeringDB has categories of ratios to choose from. What has the community decided is acceptable ratios for each category? It's fairly trivial for any network to determine what their ratio is as a number, but not necessarily as a PeeringDB label.
The community has long ago decided that ratios are bullshit -- Niels.
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 16:20:37 -0400, Prasun Dey said:
So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound.
Often, just "We're eyeballs, so heavily inbound" or similar quick estimation with no real numbers attached. Otherwise, often whatever the ISP's management thinks will give the best results when trying to convince another network to peer rather than have to pay for transit, or other similar reasons often only vaguely connected to reality.
Thanks Valdis for clarifying this. Based on this thread discussion, I’m getting this understanding as well. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 20, 2019, at 10:28 AM, Valdis Klētnieks <valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 16:20:37 -0400, Prasun Dey said:
So, my question was more like to understand when an ISP decides to claim itself as any of these (Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced)? From an ISP’s own point of view, at what point, it says, my outbound:inbound is something, so I’m Heavy Outbound.
Often, just "We're eyeballs, so heavily inbound" or similar quick estimation with no real numbers attached. Otherwise, often whatever the ISP's management thinks will give the best results when trying to convince another network to peer rather than have to pay for transit, or other similar reasons often only vaguely connected to reality.
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 9:50 AM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu> wrote:
I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values.
Hi Prasun, Ratio only masquerades as a technical term. It's whatever it takes to convince the other guy to set up settlement-free peering and you'll tweak your routing adjusting reality to match. The information in peeringdb is just a rough guide to help you figure out who to talk to as you try to adjust your traffic profile so that you can go after the big fish as "balanced." Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin bill@herrin.us https://bill.herrin.us/
Hi William, Ha ha! Thanks for pointing that out. I’m not related to any ISP at all, so this is something new. I understand, PeeringDB is just a basic guideline and ISPs put their own information about their traffic ratios. I’m interested to know whether ISPs check their own accumulated traffic and then set their own outbound:inbound traffic ratios threshold to declare themselves as Heavy Outbound/ Inbound or Balanced. Or, is there some kind of rough understanding among networking community to treat certain ratios as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound/ Outbound. Thank you. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:14 PM, William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 9:50 AM Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>> wrote:
I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values.
Hi Prasun,
Ratio only masquerades as a technical term. It's whatever it takes to convince the other guy to set up settlement-free peering and you'll tweak your routing adjusting reality to match. The information in peeringdb is just a rough guide to help you figure out who to talk to as you try to adjust your traffic profile so that you can go after the big fish as "balanced."
Regards, Bill Herrin
-- William Herrin bill@herrin.us <mailto:bill@herrin.us> https://bill.herrin.us/ <https://bill.herrin.us/>
I run an eyeballs/isp network for about ~50,000 subscribers, and I see about 1:10 ratio at peak time. Last night ~4.5 gbps out, ~45 gbps in. But, I do have local caching of 4 big name cdn cache providers, so that might alter the 1:10 ratio I see on my actual inet links (which do not include the local cdn traffic) …take Netflix for instance… I see on my local nfx cdn links, 1:100 ratio of in:out. 20 gbps inbound and .2 gbps outbound (during that same timeframe as aforementioned actual inet links) Numbers based on 21:00 CDT last night. -Aaron
Thank you Aaron, This is great. This gives an interesting insight regarding CDN as they seem to play a big role here. However, in general, what do you call your ISP as? A 'Heavy Inbound' or 'Mostly Inbound'? Is there any community standard about this ratio (having 1:10 or higher) to be treated as Heavy Inbound? Or this is just a rough estimation? Thank you. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Aaron Gould <aaron1@gvtc.com> wrote:
I run an eyeballs/isp network for about ~50,000 subscribers, and I see about 1:10 ratio at peak time. Last night ~4.5 gbps out, ~45 gbps in. But, I do have local caching of 4 big name cdn cache providers, so that might alter the 1:10 ratio I see on my actual inet links (which do not include the local cdn traffic)
…take Netflix for instance… I see on my local nfx cdn links, 1:100 ratio of in:out. 20 gbps inbound and .2 gbps outbound (during that same timeframe as aforementioned actual inet links)
Numbers based on 21:00 CDT last night.
-Aaron
I’m heavy inbound. Which I think is characteristic of a stub-AS with lots of resi/busi bb ... no transit… just a lot of people looking at stuff. Inbound is of course from the perspective of traffic coming into my AS -Aaron
Thank you Aaron for confirming that. This is helpful. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 5:26 PM, Aaron Gould <aaron1@gvtc.com> wrote:
I’m heavy inbound. Which I think is characteristic of a stub-AS with lots of resi/busi bb ... no transit… just a lot of people looking at stuff.
Inbound is of course from the perspective of traffic coming into my AS
-Aaron
Having an inbound:outbound ration of 10:1 is known as a leech ... --- The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Prasun Dey Sent: Wednesday, 19 June, 2019 14:58 To: Aaron Gould Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Traffic ratio of an ISP
Thank you Aaron, This is great. This gives an interesting insight regarding CDN as they seem to play a big role here. However, in general, what do you call your ISP as? A 'Heavy Inbound' or 'Mostly Inbound'? Is there any community standard about this ratio (having 1:10 or higher) to be treated as Heavy Inbound? Or this is just a rough estimation?
Thank you. - Prasun
Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 2:18 PM, Aaron Gould <aaron1@gvtc.com> wrote:
I run an eyeballs/isp network for about ~50,000 subscribers, and I see about 1:10 ratio at peak time. Last night ~4.5 gbps out, ~45 gbps in. But, I do have local caching of 4 big name cdn cache providers, so that might alter the 1:10 ratio I see on my actual inet links (which do not include the local cdn traffic)
…take Netflix for instance… I see on my local nfx cdn links, 1:100 ratio of in:out. 20 gbps inbound and .2 gbps outbound (during that same timeframe as aforementioned actual inet links)
Numbers based on 21:00 CDT last night.
-Aaron
I think that was a BitTorrent reference. On Thu, Jun 20, 2019, 8:17 PM Valdis Klētnieks <valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 10:16:03 -0600, "Keith Medcalf" said:
Having an inbound:outbound ration of 10:1 is known as a leech ...
Just remember that without "leech" networks like Comcast, everybody who's selling transit to content providers would be having a hard sell indeed.....
Pure ISP is heavy inbound. Pure hosting is heavy outbound. The other categories are for people that have both types of business or who sell transit to both types of business. You are being asked what kind you are most. Regards Baldur ons. 19. jun. 2019 18.50 skrev Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu>:
Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
You’re right on that, Baldur. I’m aware of this, but my focus is to know whether there are any exact numbers that community has agreed on. Thank you for your reply. Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 6:59 PM, Baldur Norddahl <baldur.norddahl@gmail.com> wrote:
Pure ISP is heavy inbound. Pure hosting is heavy outbound.
The other categories are for people that have both types of business or who sell transit to both types of business. You are being asked what kind you are most.
Regards
Baldur
ons. 19. jun. 2019 18.50 skrev Prasun Dey <prasun@nevada.unr.edu <mailto:prasun@nevada.unr.edu>>: Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
Hello, Many years ago I read somewhere that the ratio between inbound & outbound traffic we used to see at that time was going to change in the future, the reasons they mentioned at that time was because the applications would change their behavior, things like: Dropbox, Gdrive and others would consume upload traffic, I guess these hypotheses remained in the past. Alejandro, On 6/19/19 11:05 AM, Prasun Dey wrote:
Hello, Good morning. I’m a Ph.D. candidate from University of Central Florida. I have a query, I hope you can help me with it or at least point me to the right direction. I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them. In Norton’s Internet Peering Playbook or some other literary work, they mention the outbound:inbound traffic ratio as 1:1.2 to up to 1:3 for Balanced. But, I couldn’t find the other values. I’d really appreciate your help if you can please mention what Outbound:Inbound ratios that network admins use frequently to represent their traffic ratios for 1. Heavy Inbound: 2. Mostly Inbound: 3. Mostly Outbound: 4. Heavy Outbound:
Thank you. - Prasun -- Sincerely, Prasun Kanti Dey, Ph.D. candidate, Dept. of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida.
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 11:05:40 -0400, Prasun Dey said:
I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them
If they're an ISP that sells to end user consumers, they're going to be a heavy eyeball traffic - all the big packets are coming inbound from content providers and going to consumers. Content providers will of course show lots of big packets heading outwards toward eyeball networks - but those usually aren't called ISPs. If they're selling mostly transit, then they're more likely to be balanced, but again, then they're probably not really an "ISP" as the word is usually used.
Thanks Valdis for mentioning the classifications. I’ve used ISPs as generic word. But, you’re right, it’d be better if I had distinguished the CPs, ISPs or the Transits specifically. However, thanks to the community, they’ve understood and provided me some really helpful answers. - Prasun Regards, Prasun Kanti Dey Ph.D. Candidate, Dept of Electrical and Computer Engineering, University of Central Florida web: https://prasunkantidey.github.io/portfolio/
On Jun 19, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Valdis Klētnieks <valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jun 2019 11:05:40 -0400, Prasun Dey said:
I’ve seen from PeeringDB that every ISP reveals its traffic ratio as Heavy/ Mostly Inbound or Balanced or Heavy/ Mostly Outbound. I’m wondering if there is any specific ratio numbers for them
If they're an ISP that sells to end user consumers, they're going to be a heavy eyeball traffic - all the big packets are coming inbound from content providers and going to consumers.
Content providers will of course show lots of big packets heading outwards toward eyeball networks - but those usually aren't called ISPs.
If they're selling mostly transit, then they're more likely to be balanced, but again, then they're probably not really an "ISP" as the word is usually used.
participants (17)
-
Aaron Gould -
Alejandro Acosta -
Baldur Norddahl -
i3D.net - Martijn Schmidt -
Job Snijders -
Josh Luthman -
Keith Medcalf -
Knopps, Brian -
Mark Tinka -
Mike Hammett -
Niels Bakker -
Prasun Dey -
Ross Tajvar -
Seth Mattinen -
Steller, Anthony J -
Valdis Klētnieks -
William Herrin