RE: Second day of rolling blackouts starts
At 10:45 AM -0800 1/18/01, Roeland Meyer wrote:
What's wrong with this picture? I see the generators, holding a shotgun at PG&E's neck, and telling the state that they'll pull the triggers if the state doesn't come up with the dough. They're not even wearing a mask! Yet, no one is seeing anything wrong with this and they're acting like it's PG&E's fault.
Welcome to the PRC, ... Peoples' Republic of China^WCalifornia. I pointed out to a co-worker that the "state-mandated low-rate,low-supply,high-demand" power problem was tried in most parts of the former Soviet Union... and those citizens prepare for winters by stocking up on heating supplies as they "Expect" power to go out. This was a known-failed experiment before CA tried it. But, California essentially tried the same thing... high-demand, low-rate, and (through AQMD and other fun things) low-supply. They (through doing this) convinced people that they have a "right" to expect power at below-market-value. Who can blame PG&E's suppliers for being on the "winning side" of a supply-side-economics issue? Who can blame PG&E for being handcuffed by the state's rules? The people of California can, for some reason that boggles this CA resident. But maybe that's cuz I'm not a native. It seems that the natives are all upset, and the "non-native" folks I work with tend to blame California residents themselves for voting/etc. that put the price-fixes in place. "You wanted it, you got it, see how stupid it was? Now pay the price and move on instead of whining". Seem to be in the minority here though. ;-) D (This is operational, insofar as its good advice that "if you want to have consistent power for your colo, you should consider states that don't do silly things to power companies". ;-) ) -- +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | dredd@megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | | | driven before you, and to hear the | | | lamentation of their women!" | +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+
Stretching WAAAAYYY back in my power engineering days 15 years ago ... Anyone know the name of the proposed interconnect between east and west where they were going to connect the Eastern grid and Western grid together with a very short, very high cap DC line? The main issue, which may or may not still be one, is that the East half of the US couldn't help because their gird is totally separate and out of phase with the Western grid. I wonder if thats still the case today and if so, what difference it could make if they could wheel power into the West from excess capacity (if any) from the east. Eric At 11:00 AM 1/18/01 -0800, Derek J. Balling wrote:
At 10:45 AM -0800 1/18/01, Roeland Meyer wrote:
What's wrong with this picture? I see the generators, holding a shotgun at PG&E's neck, and telling the state that they'll pull the triggers if the state doesn't come up with the dough. They're not even wearing a mask! Yet, no one is seeing anything wrong with this and they're acting like it's PG&E's fault.
Welcome to the PRC, ... Peoples' Republic of China^WCalifornia.
I pointed out to a co-worker that the "state-mandated low-rate,low-supply,high-demand" power problem was tried in most parts of the former Soviet Union... and those citizens prepare for winters by stocking up on heating supplies as they "Expect" power to go out. This was a known-failed experiment before CA tried it.
But, California essentially tried the same thing... high-demand, low-rate, and (through AQMD and other fun things) low-supply. They (through doing this) convinced people that they have a "right" to expect power at below-market-value. Who can blame PG&E's suppliers for being on the "winning side" of a supply-side-economics issue? Who can blame PG&E for being handcuffed by the state's rules? The people of California can, for some reason that boggles this CA resident.
But maybe that's cuz I'm not a native. It seems that the natives are all upset, and the "non-native" folks I work with tend to blame California residents themselves for voting/etc. that put the price-fixes in place. "You wanted it, you got it, see how stupid it was? Now pay the price and move on instead of whining".
Seem to be in the minority here though. ;-)
D (This is operational, insofar as its good advice that "if you want to have consistent power for your colo, you should consider states that don't do silly things to power companies". ;-) )
-- +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | dredd@megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | | | driven before you, and to hear the | | | lamentation of their women!" | +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+
========================================================================== Eric Germann Inacom Info Systems egermann@inacomlima.com Lima, OH 45801 Ph: 419 331 9050 ICQ: 41927048 Fax: 419 331 9302 "It is so easy to miss pretty trivial solutions to problems deemed complicated. The goal of a scientist is to find an interesting problem, and live off it for a while. The goal of an engineer is to evade interesting problems :)" -- Vadim Antonov <avg@kotovnik.com> on NANOG
Answering my own question. http://www.mapp.org/publications/documents/maps/XMapp_00.pdf with some input from Tim Hodges Miles City Montana 200MW Stegall, WY (?) 100MW SIdney, NE 200MW Total convertible transmission facilities: 500MW There are also some significant DC transmission lines (400kV to 500kV) from Canada and between MN and ND and MN and SD. Those may or may not be used for phase conversion. It doesn't tell for sure. The simple solution would be to interconnect the two grids so excess capacity could be wheeled East to West or vice versa. California is going black. If we could just shut off the rest of the Western states for a little bit, connect the grids, resync the generation, we'd be all set. As some of the engineering problems used to say, the implementation is left to the reader :) Eric At 02:47 PM 1/18/01 -0500, Eric Germann wrote:
Stretching WAAAAYYY back in my power engineering days 15 years ago ...
Anyone know the name of the proposed interconnect between east and west where they were going to connect the Eastern grid and Western grid together with a very short, very high cap DC line?
The main issue, which may or may not still be one, is that the East half of the US couldn't help because their gird is totally separate and out of phase with the Western grid.
I wonder if thats still the case today and if so, what difference it could make if they could wheel power into the West from excess capacity (if any) from the east.
Eric
At 11:00 AM 1/18/01 -0800, Derek J. Balling wrote:
At 10:45 AM -0800 1/18/01, Roeland Meyer wrote:
What's wrong with this picture? I see the generators, holding a shotgun at PG&E's neck, and telling the state that they'll pull the triggers if the state doesn't come up with the dough. They're not even wearing a mask! Yet, no one is seeing anything wrong with this and they're acting like it's PG&E's fault.
Welcome to the PRC, ... Peoples' Republic of China^WCalifornia.
I pointed out to a co-worker that the "state-mandated low-rate,low-supply,high-demand" power problem was tried in most parts of the former Soviet Union... and those citizens prepare for winters by stocking up on heating supplies as they "Expect" power to go out. This was a known-failed experiment before CA tried it.
But, California essentially tried the same thing... high-demand, low-rate, and (through AQMD and other fun things) low-supply. They (through doing this) convinced people that they have a "right" to expect power at below-market-value. Who can blame PG&E's suppliers for being on the "winning side" of a supply-side-economics issue? Who can blame PG&E for being handcuffed by the state's rules? The people of California can, for some reason that boggles this CA resident.
But maybe that's cuz I'm not a native. It seems that the natives are all upset, and the "non-native" folks I work with tend to blame California residents themselves for voting/etc. that put the price-fixes in place. "You wanted it, you got it, see how stupid it was? Now pay the price and move on instead of whining".
Seem to be in the minority here though. ;-)
D (This is operational, insofar as its good advice that "if you want to have consistent power for your colo, you should consider states that don't do silly things to power companies". ;-) )
-- +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | dredd@megacity.org | "Conan! What is best in life?" | | Derek J. Balling | "To crush your enemies, see them | | | driven before you, and to hear the | | | lamentation of their women!" | +---------------------+-----------------------------------------+
========================================================================== Eric Germann Inacom Info Systems egermann@inacomlima.com Lima, OH 45801 Ph: 419 331 9050 ICQ: 41927048 Fax: 419 331 9302
"It is so easy to miss pretty trivial solutions to problems deemed complicated. The goal of a scientist is to find an interesting problem, and live off it for a while. The goal of an engineer is to evade interesting problems :)" -- Vadim Antonov <avg@kotovnik.com> on NANOG
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Eric Germann wrote:
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2001 17:02:05 -0500 From: Eric Germann <ekgermann@cctec.com> To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Second day of rolling blackouts starts
Answering my own question.
http://www.mapp.org/publications/documents/maps/XMapp_00.pdf
with some input from Tim Hodges
Miles City Montana 200MW Stegall, WY (?) 100MW SIdney, NE 200MW
The simple solution would be to interconnect the two grids so excess capacity could be wheeled East to West or vice versa. California is going black. If we could just shut off the rest of the Western states for a little bit, connect the grids, resync the generation, we'd be all set.
The problem is more economic than technical. There's plenty of power, just that the right people don't have the cash on hand to pay for it. Just criminal mismanagement, nothing new.
Eric Germann wrote:
I wonder if thats still the case today and if so, what difference it could make if they could wheel power into the West from excess capacity (if any) from the east.
Some federal beaurocrat would mandate nationwide rolling blackouts in order to ship power into CA. If you ever wonder "what if" where government is concerned, just think of the dumbest, most dangerous option possible and that is what will happen. -- David
Eric Germann sez:
The main issue, which may or may not still be one, is that the East half of th
{your linewrap is suffering from a rolling blackout..} Keeping a large power grid stable is even harder than keeping a large M$Win network stable; you run into poles in the wrong size of the Y axis.... and things like standing waves. I recall hearing about the DC tie proposal but don't know if it went anywhere. The Pacific Intertie is of course, there now & is DC. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
On Thu, 18 Jan 2001, Derek J. Balling wrote:
Welcome to the PRC, ... Peoples' Republic of China^WCalifornia.
Is anyone seeing lots of routing oddities? I'm not able to get to a lot of sites that I normally can, that are hosted in different places; and I'm wondering if some providers are routing around California outages. -- Steve Sobol, BOFH, President 888.480.4NET 866.DSL.EXPRESS 216.619.2NET North Shore Technologies Corporation http://NorthShoreTechnologies.net JustTheNet/JustTheNet EXPRESS DSL (ISP Services) http://JustThe.net mailto:sjsobol@NorthShoreTechnologies.net Proud resident of Cleveland, OH
Is anyone seeing lots of routing oddities? I'm not able to get to a lot of sites that I normally can, that are hosted in different places; and I'm wondering if some providers are routing around California outages.
The outages weren't that widespread. Any real colo or peering points are going to have ample battery and generator to get around a one hour outage.
participants (7)
-
David Charlap -
Derek J. Balling -
Eric Germann -
mdevney＠teamsphere.com -
Rusty H. Hodge -
Steven J. Sobol -
wb8foz＠nrk.com