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From daemon Sun Jan 30 13:43:45 1994 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 1994 15:38:40 CST-600 From: Dave Nordlund <NORDLUND@ccstaff.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: Confusion To: com-priv@psi.com Message-Id: <517D84AF8@ccstaff.cc.ukans.edu> X-Mailer: PMail v3.0 (R1a) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Priority: normal
Folks I am working with a company to form a network to resell Internet access. Years of experience with the existing NSF based Internet does not prepare me for the present confusion I see in the commercial Internet world. 1. I am forced to assume that CIX membership does not connect me to the NSF backbone therefore I am missing half of the Internet! If this is true, how do I connect to the other half? 2. With CIDR and Number aggregation, we are expected to provide our customer networks a number range from our larger range. However, we cannot get a number range from INTERNIC. They expect us to get ours from "our supplier". Is this CIX? Or do you have to contract with a "supplier" who has NSF Backbone connections to get a IP number range? I guess I thought that we would be a supplier! What am I missing? Dave Nordlund nordlund@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu University of Kansas 913/864-0450 Computing Services FAX 913/864-0485 Lawrence, KS 66045
So whats the problem here? My son, David, decides to become an internet service provider and thinks he can get 1.5 million subscribers. (or pick a more reasonable number.... but you must pick a number) The Internic, be reasonable, tells him to talk to those already in the biz, that already have blocks allocated in the areas David wishes to service. Should he complain? (I am tempted to re-raise my questions from AA and earlier. Just how do we profile a provider? As opposed to simply a number hoarder? I tried this before and did not get much response. Perhaps its time to dust off the old notes and try & deal w/ this in a published form.) -- Regards, Bill Manning
So whats the problem here?
My son, David, decides to become an internet service provider and thinks he can get 1.5 million subscribers. (or pick a more reasonable number.... but you must pick a number) The Internic, be reasonable, tells him to talk to those already in the biz, that already have blocks allocated in the areas David wishes to service.
Should he complain?
I have asked the question many time. "What is a provider?". Once the CIDR allocation started the "Providers" came out of the woodworks. No one so far has given an answer to the question that the majority can agree with. I will not be at the regional tech meeting in CA but Mark will. I don't know a group better suited to answer the question that established providers. Do us a favor and come up with a proposed answer to "What is a provider". I will work with NSF and Postel to make it policy. This would make our life easier.
(I am tempted to re-raise my questions from AA and earlier. Just how do we profile a provider? As opposed to simply a number hoarder? I tried this before and did not get much response. Perhaps its time to dust off the old notes and try & deal w/ this in a published form.)
-- Regards,
Bill Manning
Scott
-------- ] From: Scott Williamson <scottw@internic.net> ] Subject: Re: !! (fwd) ] Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 17:57:41 EST ] ] I have asked the question many time. "What is a provider?". Once the ] CIDR allocation started the "Providers" came out of the woodworks. ] No one so far has given an answer to the question that the majority can ] agree with. I will not be at the regional tech meeting in CA but Mark will. ] I don't know a group better suited to answer the question that established ] providers. Do us a favor and come up with a proposed answer to "What is a ] provider". I will work with NSF and Postel to make it policy. This would ] make our life easier. It would be worth establishing some guidelines as soon as possible: I just saw a message to com-priv describing basically "How to become an Internet Provider in 10 easy steps." In particular, the description of commercial routing and the recommendation _not_ to get addresses from your upstream provider I found most amusing... If you accept the following postulates: o Perfection in aggregation is desirable but not required. o With CIDR, we're trying to insure that _individual_ network announcements are reduced or eliminated. o It's administratively possible to _allocate_ a large block but only delegate in smaller blocks as needed. Then you can use something similiar to the following process: 1) Potential "providers" should be allocated a large block of network numbers (i.e. 256, 1024 or higher) based upon claimed need. 2) Such providers would then receive authority over the first 16 or so networks, so that they may proceed with business. 3) Upon depletion, the provider could request additional addresses from the existing block (the need for which may be readily confirmed by checking that the previous addresses have been allocated & updated in the WHOIS/distributed WHOIS database.) 4) Once a provider is established and considered bona fide (in the view of their allocation authority), larger delegations then become possible. This is effectively what any provider has to do now with downstream networks, whether those networks are another provider or large private client networks. /John p.s. Of course, adding a small finacial incentive (one-time or annual fee for address use) could also help requestors better gauge their true need.
participants (4)
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bmanning＠is.rice.edu -
hwb＠upeksa.sdsc.edu -
John Curran -
scottw＠internic.net