Hello, when will we see the FBI, and other local police in the other countries send the script kiddies to the JAILL so we can use the internet without too much pain? Thanks, -J __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003
On 30 Dec 2003, at 11:07, John Obi wrote:
when will we see the FBI, and other local police in the other countries send the script kiddies to the JAILL so we can use the internet without too much pain?
You're asking how long it might take for every government in every single jurisdiction in the world to pass a coherent set of laws about something that the average person knows nothing about, and to enforce them in a compatible way? Here's a vague guess: take the time it would take to agree a useful set of laws in just one jurisdiction, then raise it to the power of twenty. Joe
when will we see the FBI, and other local police in the other countries send the script kiddies to the JAILL so we can use the internet without too much
You're asking how long it might take for every government in every single jurisdiction in the world to pass a coherent set of laws about something that the average person knows nothing about, and to enforce them in a compatible way?
no. he's just a troll. remember the kiddies are out of school these two weeks randy
At 11:01 AM 12/30/2003, you wrote:
when will we see the FBI, and other local police in the other countries send the script kiddies to the JAILL so we can use the internet without too much
The cost of tracking down and prosecuting them, and the difficulty in proving that what they are doing is against the law, is significant. LEOs don't understand how to investigate and prosecute criminal network behavior, and they have other crimes they DO understand that presently have a higher priority. It will take a lot of money and education to the LEO community before this will become a priority. We don't need new laws. It is against the law (worldwide) to abuse someone else's property via trespass, theft, etc. These laws already exist and can be used to prosecute those who commit these crimes over the Internet. The first anti-spam prosecutions in the US were against Cyberpromo for "Trespass to Chattels", and were successful. The problem is that these prosecutions were very expensive, and ultimately they didn't accomplish anything (the spammers didn't stop spamming). Trying to get new laws can lead to useless (or worse, like the US's new I Can Spam act which *legalizes* spam). But it's still against the law to use someone else's computer without permission. All you have to do is identify the person committing the crime, detail how what they are doing is illegal, and convince a state/district/federal Attorney to prosecute. And provide expert witnesses who can help the judge learn why and how these acts ARE illegal. And then repeat, repeat, repeat, for years until the spammers/hackers etc. have been stopped, by getting judges to throw them in jail for contempt of court when they don't pay their fines or stop spamming per the judgements issued.
You're asking how long it might take for every government in every single jurisdiction in the world to pass a coherent set of laws about something that the average person knows nothing about, and to enforce them in a compatible way?
no. he's just a troll. remember the kiddies are out of school these two weeks
randy
According to Google, he has posted twice before to nanog, both on-topic networking questions. What evidence do you have that he's a troll and/or an "out of school kiddie"? jc
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, JC Dill wrote:
At 11:01 AM 12/30/2003, you wrote:
when will we see the FBI, and other local police in the other countries send the script kiddies to the JAILL so we can use the internet without too much
The cost of tracking down and prosecuting them, and the difficulty in proving that what they are doing is against the law, is significant. LEOs don't understand how to investigate and prosecute criminal network behavior, and they have other crimes they DO understand that presently have a higher priority. It will take a lot of money and education to the LEO community before this will become a priority.
I wanted to jump in and clarify a few things. First of all, we DO understand how to investigate these kinds of crimes. The cases may be more difficult because of the jurisdictional issues that arise, but we still work them. Internet/Cyber crime is one of the FBI's top investigative priorities, and the FBI is dedicating a lot of resources and personnel to prosecute Cyber criminals. Also keep in mind that the backgrounds of FBI Special Agents are changing; new Agents have more technical breadth and experience than they did before, and are well-suited for cyber investigations. -Eric
I can add, that, even if 'tracking back' do not work well, active defense (honey pots, etc etc) works in 99% cases. In our case (RU-CERT few years ago), main problem was time - any tracking or honey pot acrtivities consumed tremendous time, and resulted, in 99% cases, in revealing 2 more school students without any clue in their brains. But it works - set up a traps, allow to get control over a few systems and trace actions back, generate (and than track usage) few _real_ credit card numbers and few _real_ bank accounts - and, in time, you will have someone's face... Technically - no any problem. (Legal issues are another story... in States). Alexei Roudnev ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric M. Fiterman" <efiterman@pittsburghfbi.org> To: "JC Dill" <nanog@vo.cnchost.com> Cc: "nanog" <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2003 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Internet law
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, JC Dill wrote:
At 11:01 AM 12/30/2003, you wrote:
when will we see the FBI, and other local police in the other countries send the script kiddies to the JAILL so we can use the internet without too much
The cost of tracking down and prosecuting them, and the difficulty in proving that what they are doing is against the law, is significant.
LEOs
don't understand how to investigate and prosecute criminal network behavior, and they have other crimes they DO understand that presently have a higher priority. It will take a lot of money and education to the LEO community before this will become a priority.
I wanted to jump in and clarify a few things. First of all, we DO understand how to investigate these kinds of crimes. The cases may be more difficult because of the jurisdictional issues that arise, but we still work them. Internet/Cyber crime is one of the FBI's top investigative priorities, and the FBI is dedicating a lot of resources and personnel to prosecute Cyber criminals.
Also keep in mind that the backgrounds of FBI Special Agents are changing; new Agents have more technical breadth and experience than they did before, and are well-suited for cyber investigations.
-Eric
Joe Abley wrote:
On 30 Dec 2003, at 11:07, John Obi wrote:
when will we see the FBI, and other local police in the other countries send the script kiddies to the JAILL so we can use the internet without too much pain?
You're asking how long it might take for every government in every single jurisdiction in the world to pass a coherent set of laws about something that the average person knows nothing about, and to enforce them in a compatible way?
Here's a vague guess: take the time it would take to agree a useful set of laws in just one jurisdiction, then raise it to the power of twenty.
Worse still, as the US found (prior to law changes, post Darpa years), prosecuting Script Kiddies is counter productive.. you take the brightest most inquisitive minds of our time, and ruin their future... Incarceration indoctrinating them in the dark side of life, and the "record" preventing them from escaping it... thus their untapped potential is either wasted, or worse still, corrupted, and -then- tapped. Brilliant Strategy, eh ? So, after a little thought, We took to confiscating their gear, and denying them access for a year (more or less)... Which of course, made them crazy to -get- access, and after that year, you -couldn't- separate them from their tools of learning. Many went on to be some of the sharpest technicals in the field. :P Life is Counter Intuitive.
Joe
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Richard Irving wrote:
Worse still, as the US found (prior to law changes, post Darpa years), prosecuting Script Kiddies is counter productive.. you take the brightest most inquisitive minds of our time, and ruin their future...
I'm not sure I'd say that the skript kiddies arrested were the "brightest minds". I believe the brighter minds may have had a brush with the law, and then gotten out of it.
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, John Obi wrote:
when will we see the FBI, and other local police in the other countries send the script kiddies to the JAILL so we can use the internet without too much pain?
I use InternetIbuprofen(tm), it allows me to use the internet pain free all day long! BTW, do you really want the FBI playing around in your irc channel?
participants (9)
-
Alexei Roudnev -
Eric Brunner-Williams in Portland Maine -
Eric M. Fiterman -
JC Dill -
Joe Abley -
John Obi -
Randy Bush -
Richard Irving -
Tom (UnitedLayer)