Re: Black Frog - the botnets keep coming
Sorry, this is not acceptable, regardless of national boundaries. And it will be fought against, regardless of where it originates, or resides. Always. I do not condone collateral damage strategies in this regard, but suggesting that a "wild, wild west" Internet is something that will be a contimuum -- it cannot be, and will not be. As such, I also do not condone such activities as Blue/Black Frog suggest, as it is completely contrary to established practices of mitigation (and removal). - ferg p.s. Now if we could only get the registries onboard... -- "Alexei Roudnev" <alex@relcom.net> wrote: Internet IS a wild west. You should live with it. It will never be _quet, dead american's residential area, where dogs do not bark and kids do not play themself on streets in age of 8 (normal dogs bark, and normal kids often play themself when they are 8)_. It is the whole WORLD, not one country. So, we must live with it, and do not hope, that it will have numerous _speed tickets_ and _police officers_ (as 90% of the people live every day, making their own decisions and protecting themselves. It is, in fact, a very effectiv way to stop spammers. But it definitely became a dangerous DDOS service. So - learn how to live with it, it's the only choice. (Make sure, that no single protocol or botnet can kill the whole network or deplete all resources, for example). [snip] -- "Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawg@netzero.net or fergdawg@sbcglobal.net ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
You have not other chance than to accept it - itr is real life. Period. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fergie" <fergdawg@netzero.net> To: <alex@relcom.net> Cc: <ge@linuxbox.org>; <fw@deneb.enyo.de>; <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:59 PM Subject: Re: Black Frog - the botnets keep coming Sorry, this is not acceptable, regardless of national boundaries. And it will be fought against, regardless of where it originates, or resides. Always. ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
I did not mean _dont fight them_. I mean _fight and learn to live with them_. They did existed and will exist; and it is better, if they exist in some numbers (they play a role of predators in wildlife, eating weakerst -:) - of course, it looks strange and I do not like them, too). Netwok must be designed to survive few DDOS attacks easily, by auto-isolating and auto-limiting such traffic. Else, you will have a serious problems if real traffic became congested (for example, everyone rush to download fee iPOD songs). Script-kiddies... what's about them, they existed in 199x-th as well and they will exist in 201x. Just as mountain lionss do exists in Bay Area (and sometimes can eat your favorite cat...) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suresh Ramasubramanian" <ops.lists@gmail.com> To: "Alexei Roudnev" <alex@relcom.net> Cc: "Fergie" <fergdawg@netzero.net>; <ge@linuxbox.org>; <fw@deneb.enyo.de>; <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Monday, May 29, 2006 10:38 PM Subject: Re: Black Frog - the botnets keep coming
On 5/30/06, Alexei Roudnev <alex@relcom.net> wrote:
You have not other chance than to accept it - itr is real life. Period.
So are (for example) skript kiddies.
On Tue, 30 May 2006 09:44:49 PDT, Alexei Roudnev said:
Netwok must be designed to survive few DDOS attacks easily, by auto-isolating and auto-limiting such traffic. Else, you will have a serious problems if real traffic became congested (for example, everyone rush to download fee iPOD songs).
Mafiaboy hosed down a few big sites - I think he had something like 850 zombies under his control. Today's botnets are averaging some 100x the size. The problem is cost - the vast majority of sites on the Internet really *can't* afford the resources needed to withstand the impact of a 100K zombie botnet or a mention on Slashdot. Even sites with big pipes have to make judgment calls - our site has enough OC-12's worth of pipe to ride out a small attack. But at some point, we need to draw the line and say "We're not putting in another OC-48 until our normal traffic justifies it, and we'll just have to bet that we don't piss off anybody with an OC-48's worth of zombies".
Script-kiddies... what's about them, they existed in 199x-th as well and they will exist in 201x.
10 years ago, the script-kiddies were armed with the equivalent of switchblade knives - now they're packing the equivalent of AK-47s and several magazines of extra ammo.
participants (4)
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Alexei Roudnev
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Fergie
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Suresh Ramasubramanian
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Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu