| I've asked this of a number of people now, but how many providers | have multiple POP's in a city that are _completely redundant_? | That is, they can operate _fully_ with one POP out of service? The suitcase nuclear bomb that takes out my facility in one location is very likely to take out my other facility in the same metro area. And probably all the customers who would remotely care. | Even if they have two pops, many of those cities won't have redundant | long haul capacity. The bigger problem is actually that many of those cities will have zero customers who are willing to pay extra to be connected to a router in POP-A and a router in POP-B, and I know of no way to make such a connection cost the same or less than a single connection to only one of those routers. So, while it's _possible_ to make the Big Red Switches' states very nearly totally invisible to any customer, it's not often done. But, hey, deep-pockets people have found out that several suppliers are eminently capable of engineering (nearly) all the resilience and redundundancy that the deep-pockets can manage to pay for... Sean.
Actually, bandwidth to 2 POPs can often be had for close to the same price as one. ATM bandwidth pricing is close to linear. One physical port, 2 VPI/VCI paths, one to each of two POPs, each with half the bandwidth. If you were willing to risk one port/one path before you can now do two (or more). You're right though if you want sperate last mile paths, but that's an ILEC pricing problem. Since we were talking about multi-homing, my assumption was two ports/two paths were a given. Destination of the paths is what I was talking about.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Sean M. Doran Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 11:56 AM To: bicknell@ufp.org; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: multi-homing fixed
| I've asked this of a number of people now, but how many providers | have multiple POP's in a city that are _completely redundant_? | That is, they can operate _fully_ with one POP out of service?
The suitcase nuclear bomb that takes out my facility in one location is very likely to take out my other facility in the same metro area. And probably all the customers who would remotely care.
| Even if they have two pops, many of those cities won't have redundant | long haul capacity.
The bigger problem is actually that many of those cities will have zero customers who are willing to pay extra to be connected to a router in POP-A and a router in POP-B, and I know of no way to make such a connection cost the same or less than a single connection to only one of those routers. So, while it's _possible_ to make the Big Red Switches' states very nearly totally invisible to any customer, it's not often done.
But, hey, deep-pockets people have found out that several suppliers are eminently capable of engineering (nearly) all the resilience and redundundancy that the deep-pockets can manage to pay for...
Sean.
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 12:13:42PM -0400, David Hares wrote:
as one. ATM bandwidth pricing is close to linear. One physical port, 2
One physical port does not equal redundancy in my book. After all, it must land on one physical port (in one POP) on the other end. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 08:56:06AM -0700, Sean M. Doran wrote:
The suitcase nuclear bomb that takes out my facility in one location is very likely to take out my other facility in the same metro area. And probably all the customers who would remotely care.
I don't know about the others in this thread, but the suitcase nuclear bomb is well outside the types of things I worry about protecting against, and in fact were one to explode I think 'lack of internet access' would be _WAY_ down on my list of priorities. Fiber cuts, tech error, and maybe a building fire are of interest to me. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
The suitcase nuclear bomb that takes out my facility in one location is very likely to take out my other facility in the same metro area. And probably all the customers who would remotely care.
I don't know about the others in this thread, but the suitcase nuclear bomb is well outside the types of things I worry about protecting against, and in fact were one to explode I think 'lack of internet access' would be _WAY_ down on my list of priorities.
Hopefully Sean was being a bit over the top. :) A bomb threat is definately something to worry about, though. I wish I remembered more of the details or a news article to substantiate, but what I do remember about a year ago was a bomb threat at the non-ghetto MAE-EAST facility in Vienna, VA (I remember we were all wondering why all the WCOM people were leaving the building). If a bomb (threat) actually had occured, things would have definately been unhappy. Rachel -- But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things. - Thoreau
Rachel Warren wrote:
The suitcase nuclear bomb that takes out my facility in one location is very likely to take out my other facility in the same metro area. And probably all the customers who would remotely care.
I don't know about the others in this thread, but the suitcase nuclear bomb is well outside the types of things I worry about protecting against, and in fact were one to explode I think 'lack of internet access' would be _WAY_ down on my list of priorities.
Hopefully Sean was being a bit over the top. :)
A bomb threat is definately something to worry about, though. I wish I remembered more of the details or a news article to substantiate, but what I do remember about a year ago was a bomb threat at the non-ghetto MAE-EAST facility in Vienna, VA (I remember we were all wondering why all the WCOM people were leaving the building).
If a bomb (threat) actually had occured, things would have definately been unhappy.
Rachel
-- But it is a characteristic of wisdom not to do desperate things. - Thoreau
Once upon a time, while talking with a customer about a particular LA datacenter's fault tolerant features (you know, generators, UPS, HVAC, diverse fiber entrances, etc...), they very calmly asked me what procedures we had in place in the event that a major earthquake struck the southland and dropped LA into the ocean or otherwise put the city underwater. I told them very bluntly that if an earthquake of that magnitude were to hit LA, I would *not* be overly concerned with their servers/circuit/etc., assuming I was still breathing. They were quite taken aback. ;) Grant -- Grant A. Kirkwood - grant@virtical.net Chief Technology Officer - Virtical Solutions, Inc. http://www.virtical.net/
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Grant A. Kirkwood wrote:
Once upon a time, while talking with a customer about a particular LA datacenter's fault tolerant features (you know, generators, UPS, HVAC, diverse fiber entrances, etc...), they very calmly asked me what procedures we had in place in the event that a major earthquake struck the southland and dropped LA into the ocean or otherwise put the city underwater. I told them very bluntly that if an earthquake of that magnitude were to hit LA, I would *not* be overly concerned with their servers/circuit/etc., assuming I was still breathing. They were quite taken aback. ;)
Evidently they took the term "fault tolerant" literally. (Sorry, couldn't resist) - SLS ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Scott L. Stursa 850/644-2591 Network Security Officer stursa@acns.fsu.edu Academic Computing and Network Services Florida State University "That's why you go to FSU - to watch the Seminoles and get drunk" - FSU student interviewed by WCTV, broadcast of 2001.8.27
participants (6)
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David Hares -
Grant A. Kirkwood -
Leo Bicknell -
Rachel Warren -
Scott Stursa -
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