Re: Policy Statement on Address Space Allocations
| If word gets out that going with a small provider == having | to renumber your corporate hosts regularly, big providers will have | effectively locked small players out of the market... which helps their | pocketbooks at the expense of a lot of other people. Well, I can only speak about one big provider, however I would be surprised if my view is not shared to some extent by at least some of our competitiors, and by all the engineers at ALL of them, no matter what their marketing people have gotten into their heads. Large providers cannot afford to squeeze small providers out of the marketplace. Not one of them has more than a tiny fraction of the customer-support labour resources of the aggregate of their own customers (not to mention customers' customers, and so on and so forth). Indeed, there are more customer-support handholders employed by folks downstream from Sprint around the world than there are people who work for Sprint. Moreover, there are timezone issues, local language issues, and numerous other problems that would have to be dealt with by any large provider attempting to be a worldwide dialup-Internet/local-services provider. I am willing to bet my farm that SprintLink could never support large numbers of dialup end users in a reasonable way and do so in a manner that is cost-competitive with our customers. In fact, the bulk of our cutomers who are reading this message may well quip that SprintLink has done a just barely tolerable job of supporting its current customer base. Moreover, while there is a much stronger corporate committment to SprintLink now than there ever has been in its history, and what looks alot like strong recognition by senior executives that the Internet is Really Different from private data networking services, I don't think anybody really believes we could compete on the customer-support front with two-smart-people-and-a-bunch-of-{modems,ISDN}. Being a large service provider is about pushing the envelope of IP and transmissions technology, about dealing with complicated routing issues, and about supporting large customers better and more cost-effectively than they could do by stringing their own lines among themselves. Being a small service provider is about customer support. Moreover, it's customer support for people whose only exposure to the Internet so far has involved paying too much money to folks like Prodigy. In other words, don't panic about large providers competing directly with local access providers. No customer-support resources, no desire to dry up the substantial revenue we get from more local access providers (some of which are continental in scope, some of which are national in scope, and some of which are local to a state or metropolitan area). Now, what is true is that some of the companies who are big providers have invested lots of money into trademarks and brand names and are keen on keeping themselves visible in the consumer market as something of a household name. Do not be surprised to see, rather than an attempt to squash out local providers, many plans to swing deals with local providers as outsource centres for customer support or as franchises selling lower-end services, that would result in making some small providers much bigger and much richer. Moreover, franchise/outsource deals or no, remember that our goal is to do what we're really good at (providing international backbone connectivity to smart people who don't need very much customer support) and make money doing it. It is not forcing customers to stay with us and us alone that helps our bottom line, it's giving customers enough good service and support that they are a/ happy and b/ in need of MUCH more bandwidth to SprintLink, for which we will happily charge money. So instead of seeing customers multihoming or wanting to be able to multihome as a disease, I see it as a symptom. The disease is that we have a bunch of hardware which must handle enormous loads for which they were never designed, and which we can't replace immediately, because there is no better alternative. Moreover, with respect to some things, such as an ever-increasingly-large-and-flap-prone routing table, there is no ultimate cure except preventative medicine. That medicine is called CIDR (Call it data robitussin?), and helping roll out ANYTHING that will encourage people to avoid increasing the size of routing tables in the routers of the world which are most CPU bound right now. The encouragement, IMHO, should be in the form of the work PIER is addressing (sorry about the pun), some possible future renumbering tools, NATs, or any other technology which results in making a change of addresses painless and quick, so that people have little or no reason to object to using provider-supplied addresses. | At this rate we're going to see the policy change to "each RBOC gets a /7 | out of the old class A space, and then that's it" Have you ever met an RBOC data person? Have you ever met anyone at an RBOC who understands the Internet? Hi Warren! (Well, there's Mark Knopper, I suppose, so there's at least one person at one subsidiary of one RBOC...) You're better off panicking about @Home, who have been hiring some amazingly clueful people, but I think you will find that even they would rather make money off small ISPs than consider them competitors. So, that said, hopefully a little of the Evil Greedy Bastard image will be dispelled in your mind, and a bit of "hm, you know, maybe they aren't lying through their teeth, and maybe this is good for *US* too", might have seeped in. If not, well, then may your days (in the future sometime) of being considered an arch-villain by smaller organizations be at least as interesting as mine. Sean.
You know, Sean, that as I was reading this paragraph: On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Sean Doran wrote:
I am willing to bet my farm that SprintLink could never support large numbers of dialup end users in a reasonable way and do so in a manner that is cost-competitive with our customers.
I was actally thinking of responding with a paragraph similar to this paragraph:
In fact, the bulk of our cutomers who are reading this message may well quip that SprintLink has done a just barely tolerable job of supporting its current customer base.
Unfortunately, you beat me to the punch.
That medicine is called CIDR (Call it data robitussin?), and helping roll out ANYTHING that will encourage people to avoid increasing the size of routing tables in the routers of the world which are most CPU bound right now.
The encouragement, IMHO, should be in the form of the work PIER is addressing (sorry about the pun), some possible future renumbering tools, NATs, or any other technology which results in making a change of addresses painless and quick, so that people have little or no reason to object to using provider-supplied addresses.
I agree. But in the interim, ISP's which are also in the registry "business" need to be able to get a large enough block to be able to allocate to their customers without worries about what happens when they need to use the poor-quality service clause in their contract, or when they go multi-homed and end up producing multiple routes in the registry. If the ISP I do sysadmin for was to go multihomed tomorrow, instead of a couple of months from now, we'd be announcing 7 separate routes. Instead we're making all our customers renumber into the /18 block we succeeded in finally wrestling away from the internic by agreeing to returning over an /18's worth of ip address space. That said, I don't think every new ISP should get an /18 block. For example, there are four other ISP's in the community here, and only one of them would probably even know what the term CIDR meant.
Have you ever met an RBOC data person?
Yeah. They're wonderful people. They sell cisco routers to companies based on their (the RBOC's) great service and support and when they screw them up, people like me get to go straighten the system out for a good chunk of change. -forrestc
Instead we're making all our customers renumber into the /18 block we succeeded in finally wrestling away from the internic by agreeing to returning over an /18's worth of ip address space.
Ah, the "Bill Manning Solution"(tm). Now if we could only get ISPs like Sprint to play, Bill could get his Nobel Internet Prize. The ISP you work for should be strongly commended, but I gather it wasn't done entirely voluntarily...
That said, I don't think every new ISP should get an /18 block. For example, there are four other ISP's in the community here, and only one of them would probably even know what the term CIDR meant.
But what is the discriminator? RIPE-NCC and APNIC essentially use charging (e.g., to get a service provider block in the AP region, we request US $2500/year minimum). Would this be sufficient in the US to reduce the number of ISP requests InterNIC is currently experiencing (and I should note that the request rate has apparently doubled over 6 months)? And what would InterNIC do with the money? Regards, -drc
On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, David R. Conrad wrote:
Instead we're making all our customers renumber into the /18 block we succeeded in finally wrestling away from the internic by agreeing to returning over an /18's worth of ip address space.
Ah, the "Bill Manning Solution"(tm). Now if we could only get ISPs like Sprint to play, Bill could get his Nobel Internet Prize. The ISP you work for should be strongly commended, but I gather it wasn't done entirely voluntarily...
Well, not entirely. We looked at the situation and decided it was now or never to get our customers into a multihome-able block. Fortunately, all of our customers have been more than understanding about why they need to move, especially with some of Sprint's past connectivity problems.
That said, I don't think every new ISP should get an /18 block. For example, there are four other ISP's in the community here, and only one of them would probably even know what the term CIDR meant.
But what is the discriminator? RIPE-NCC and APNIC essentially use charging (e.g., to get a service provider block in the AP region, we request US $2500/year minimum). Would this be sufficient in the US to reduce the number of ISP requests InterNIC is currently experiencing (and I should note that the request rate has apparently doubled over 6 months)?
Setting a high fee would definately keep the "two high school student ISP" out of the /18 block business. However, I know that some startup ISP's wouldn't blink twice at $2500 a year, but their technical people can't even spell BGP.
And what would InterNIC do with the money?
Probably the same it's doing with the millions it's collecting from the .COM, .ORG, and .NET domain registrations, whatever that is. -forrestc@imach.com
Instead we're making all our customers renumber into the /18 block we succeeded in finally wrestling away from the internic by agreeing to returning over an /18's worth of ip address space.
In your initial request to the InterNIC you stated you were going to return the /18 to your upstream provider. This was your idea. If you didn't want to do it than why did *you* suggest it? You obviously had your reasons for wanting your customers to renumber, but implying that the InterNIC forced you to do this is totally incorrect as you know. Would you like me to forward you a copy of the request to refresh your memory? Kim
Just to clarify this..... We "originally" had a /20 and a /23 from Sprint. Late July of Last year, we were out of addresses - we had more requests than we could fill. I had attempted to obtain an /19 from Sprint, but was having difficulty getting the addresses. As a result, I went to the internic. After several rounds of "Why aren't you getting the address from sprint, and what's the deal with this and that", I finally got allocated a /19. About a week later someone in Sprint decided to allocate the /19. After the mess I had gone through, I decided to keep the second /19. Sometime after I recieved the "two" /19's, Sprint announced that the filters would be applied at /18. Great, now I have two blocks which I can't use on the net. (Yes, I know, Sprint relaxed their filters, but after this was mostly done with). Our goal was to renumber our customers into a announcements which we could guarantee would be routed when backbone router meltdown forced people to squeeze the swamp. As a result, I needed an /18. I sent a note to the internic, requesting an /18 in exchange for my existing /19's and the /23, which I would return to their origin registries. I got the following note back: " The InterNIC allocates addresses to ISPs based on the slow start procedure as detailed in the ISP guidelines. Please utilize the /19, once you have reassigned the /19 and SWIPped them you may request additional address space and if the InterNIC feels you are assigning them efficiently you may request additional address space." Which, in all fairness to the internic, I responded to with a very short note which summarized the application. Basically, stating that I was unsure why that Allocating me an /18 in exchange for the equivalent of an /18 plus a /20, plus a few customer IP's, was a problem. I got the block. We vacated the /19's in a very short time, and we've about got the /20 vacated (2-3 /24's to go). If I implied that the internic is forcing us to renumber, I'm sorry. What I should have said is "We're renumbering because of various reasons. However, we had a hard time getting the /18 we're numbering into. We succeeded in getting the /18 because we had over an /18's worth of addresses which we returned to the internic". forrestc@imach.com On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Kim Hubbard wrote:
Instead we're making all our customers renumber into the /18 block we succeeded in finally wrestling away from the internic by agreeing to returning over an /18's worth of ip address space.
In your initial request to the InterNIC you stated you were going to return the /18 to your upstream provider. This was your idea. If you didn't want to do it than why did *you* suggest it?
You obviously had your reasons for wanting your customers to renumber, but implying that the InterNIC forced you to do this is totally incorrect as you know. Would you like me to forward you a copy of the request to refresh your memory?
Kim
Ah, the "Bill Manning Solution"(tm). Now if we could only get ISPs like Sprint to play, Bill could get his Nobel Internet Prize.
Er, this is to give you notice that my legal counsel advises me that you should cease and desist until the appropriate documents are signed. And its not the Noble (or even igNobel) prize I'm after, its 192.0.0.0/8 !!!! Bwahahahah :) As to the monies collected? I need a new wardrobe and a shave. Perhaps even a life :) -- --bill
participants (5)
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bmanning@ISI.EDU
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David R. Conrad
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Forrest W. Christian
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Kim Hubbard
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Sean Doran