standards for giving out blocks of IP addresses
Hi, is there a standard or a practice on how much IP addresses an ISP should provide to his/her client given that this client has bought only 2Mb of bandwidth and this client is an ISP? Thanks sheng
What type of IP usage does this client expect? And how large is the block of addresses available to yourself? On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 shsu@HydroOne.com wrote:
Hi, is there a standard or a practice on how much IP addresses an ISP should provide to his/her client given that this client has bought only 2Mb of bandwidth and this client is an ISP? Thanks sheng
If you're in the US... http://www.arin.net/regserv/initial-isp.html In a nutshell, the customer needs to be able to populate at least 50% of the given allocation. If the customer already has allocated space, 80% of that must be populated before given an additional allocation. -C On Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:17:01PM -0400, shsu@HydroOne.com wrote:
Hi, is there a standard or a practice on how much IP addresses an ISP should provide to his/her client given that this client has bought only 2Mb of bandwidth and this client is an ISP? Thanks sheng
-- --------------------------- Christopher A. Woodfield rekoil@semihuman.com PGP Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xB887618B
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:17:01 EDT, shsu@HydroOne.com said:
Hi, is there a standard or a practice on how much IP addresses an ISP should provide to his/her client given that this client has bought only 2Mb of bandwidth and this client is an ISP?
Umm.. don't bother. Let's think this through. 2Mbits/sec of bandwidth will only sustain about 40 56KB modems doing a simultaneous download. Even adding in think time and the like, a /24 should be plenty wide enough. The *BIG* question is how the ISP intends to make any money at that scale. Figuring even a 10X overcommitment, that's 400 customers at $20/mo or so, for an inbound cash flow of only $8K/month, with which they get to pay their bandwidth charge, their tech support, and everything else. I wish them luck. -- Valdis Kletnieks Operating Systems Analyst Virginia Tech
On Tue, Jun 12, 2001 at 04:37:32PM -0400, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:17:01 EDT, shsu@HydroOne.com said:
Hi, is there a standard or a practice on how much IP addresses an ISP should provide to his/her client given that this client has bought only 2Mb of bandwidth and this client is an ISP?
Umm.. don't bother. Let's think this through. 2Mbits/sec of bandwidth will only sustain about 40 56KB modems doing a simultaneous download. Even adding in think time and the like, a /24 should be plenty wide enough.
nice fantasy land you live in. in the real world, i'm seeing as much as 32 E1 PRI's (960 lines) connected by a single 2mbit internet circuit. that may be crowded to some people on the list, but it is not unrealistic in some regions.
The *BIG* question is how the ISP intends to make any money at that scale. Figuring even a 10X overcommitment, that's 400 customers at $20/mo or so, for an inbound cash flow of only $8K/month, with which they get to pay their bandwidth charge, their tech support, and everything else.
the BIG question is does the ISP have the bankroll to get going, but that is way off topic here. the economics of building an ISP are different from region to region. -- [ Jim Mercer jim@reptiles.org +1 416 410-5633 ] [ Now with more and longer words for your reading enjoyment. ]
Umm.. don't bother. Let's think this through. 2Mbits/sec of bandwidth will only sustain about 40 56KB modems doing a simultaneous download.
This misunderstanding of bandwidth usage has been propagated many times before... one can only hope that it will go away someday. Some *real* statistics... one of my rural POPs (translation: heavy usage) has 620 subscribers and 112 V.90 modems. *Real* bandwidth usage over the last month: 515.3Kb/s maximum, and 233.7Kb/s average. Clearly no where near 2 Mb/s. It also gets by with a /25. My urban POPs have one-half to two-thirds this usage.
inbound cash flow of only $8K/month
Well, it would be $12,400/mo at 620 subscribers. That's plenty for a mom-and-pop, which can easily handle 620 subscribers. There are many ISPs in the country that are this size or smaller, some of which are downstream from me. Our policy in this situation would be to allocate a /24 to the customer initially, and route more as needed. -- Bruce Robertson, President/CEO +1-775-348-7299 Great Basin Internet Services, Inc. fax: +1-775-348-9412 For PGP key: finger bruce@greatbasin.net
Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:17:01 EDT, shsu@HydroOne.com said:
Hi, is there a standard or a practice on how much IP addresses an ISP should provide to his/her client given that this client has bought only 2Mb of bandwidth and this client is an ISP?
Umm.. don't bother. Let's think this through. 2Mbits/sec of bandwidth will only sustain about 40 56KB modems doing a simultaneous download.
Even adding in think time and the like, a /24 should be plenty wide enough.
Of course bandwidth != subnet mask. He should give them whatever IP's they demonstrate a need for in the next three months. Determining and justifying that need has nothing to do with how over (or under) subscribed their bandwidth is. If they are in fact only selling dialup (not leased lines, not web hosting), you might ask how many pops(locations) they plan to have right away, modems/pop, space reserved for internal devices (email/corporate lan) and links. You could easially justify a couple of /24's with a couple locations and IP's for all the new PC's in the marketing dept. KL
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:17:01 EDT, shsu@HydroOne.com said:
Hi, is there a standard or a practice on how much IP addresses an ISP should provide to his/her client given that this client has bought only 2Mb of bandwidth and this client is an ISP?
Umm.. don't bother. Let's think this through. 2Mbits/sec of bandwidth will only sustain about 40 56KB modems doing a simultaneous download.
Even adding in think time and the like, a /24 should be plenty wide enough.
Not really...I regularly see 180+ lines filled and BW utilization averages about 800-900kbps. This is with a couple hundred websites, outsourced news a dedicated DS0 customer that stays pegged almost all the time and several colocated servers. I'll bet this has been hashed here a few times... James Smallacombe PlantageNet, Inc. CEO and Janitor up@3.am http://3.am =========================================================================
* Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu> [20010612 13:03]:
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:17:01 EDT, shsu@HydroOne.com said:
Hi, is there a standard or a practice on how much IP addresses an ISP should provide to his/her client given that this client has bought only 2Mb of bandwidth and this client is an ISP?
Umm.. don't bother. Let's think this through. 2Mbits/sec of bandwidth will only sustain about 40 56KB modems doing a simultaneous download.
You've got an interesting view of the $20/mo. retail dial-up market economics. Very few access providers have end-users on dial-up with such thriving Internet habits (though each access providers' customer base differs).
Even adding in think time and the like, a /24 should be plenty wide enough.
I can't contest this since the original poster provided insufficient information. A single /24 happens to be a default for some providers of T1 IP transit in the U.S unless the end-user requests otherwise...but not all providers are quite so lacks. More importantly, the IP address utilization (and associated utilization time line) is more useful in determining what size block should be assigned to the client. The available (or in use) bandwidth is more of a side note than a deciding factor in block size assignment. It happens to be rare that a dial-up customer can justify a /24 but it is hardly rare for a T1 customer to have multiple /24s fully populated. IP address requirements are hardly a direct result of the size of the pipe.
The *BIG* question is how the ISP intends to make any money at that scale. Figuring even a 10X over-commitment, that's 400 customers at $20/mo or so, for an inbound cash flow of only $8K/month, with which they get to pay their bandwidth charge, their tech support, and everything else.
I wish them luck.
You've apparently not paid much attention to how this industry got started have you? Though, they will need the luck...I'll grant you that... :-) Times have changed more than a little in the U.S....but it still happens here. On an international level there are even more pockets where this sort of evolution in the Internet industry has yet to be played out (and can still be exploited for fun and profit). -jr ---- Josh Richards <jrichard@{ geekresearch.com, cubicle.net }> [JTR38/JR539-ARIN] Geek Research, LLC - San Luis Obispo, CA - <URL:http://www.geekresearch.com/> KG6CYK - IP/Unix/telecom/knowledge/coffee/security/crypto/business/geek
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:32:14 PDT, Josh Richards <jrichard@cubicle.net> said:
* Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu <Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu> [20010612 13:03]:
Umm.. don't bother. Let's think this through. 2Mbits/sec of bandwidth will only sustain about 40 56KB modems doing a simultaneous download.
You've got an interesting view of the $20/mo. retail dial-up market economics. Very few access providers have end-users on dial-up with such thriving Internet habits (though each access providers' customer base differs).
OK.. I'll admit it - personal viewpoint *may* be a bit slanted, we've been just a bit ahead of the curve - bev.net launched about a decade ago across the hall from my office. http://www.bev.net/project/brochures/about.html The local people are on-line, big-time, real-time, all the time. At least locally, we need to over-provision compared to what a lot of other people are reporting.
Even adding in think time and the like, a /24 should be plenty wide enough.
I can't contest this since the original poster provided insufficient information. A single /24 happens to be a default for some providers of T1
Well.. the question was how much space to sell to *another ISP*. Now, we've seen several numbers that all seem to agree that several racks of modems will saturate the 2Mb link to the customer ISP for a /24 or maybe a /23 worth of dialup modem pool space. If the new startup ISP is providing colocation, expect that either they have colocated a lot of idle hardware, or that they'll saturate their 2Mb even faster. I'd expect a /24 worth of webservers should saturate an uplink even faster than a /24 worth of terminal servers.
You've apparently not paid much attention to how this industry got started have you? Though, they will need the luck...I'll grant you that... :-)
I *was* paying attention - I was there. ;) Just some days I forget there's people still trying to climb onto the bandwagon we're desperately trying to get *off*. ;) -- Valdis Kletnieks Operating Systems Analyst Virginia Tech
Hi Sheng, Yes there is a formula, "As many as they need to address their hosts/interfaces." If you look at the arin website (www.arin.net) I believe you may find some guidelines. Bandwidth shouldn't be the driving factor but specific addressing needs should be. "ISP" can mean so many things these days:) If they have a 100 or so dial up ports and a dozen or so additional servers and hosts then a /24 should be more than enough. With 2Mb of transit they are not going to be any bigger than that? They may even get away with less addresses depending on what they're doing. JC -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of shsu@HydroOne.com Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 1:17 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: standards for giving out blocks of IP addresses Importance: High Hi, is there a standard or a practice on how much IP addresses an ISP should provide to his/her client given that this client has bought only 2Mb of bandwidth and this client is an ISP? Thanks sheng
participants (10)
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Bruce Robertson -
Christopher A. Woodfield -
Jim Mercer -
John Crain -
Josh Richards -
Kevin Loch -
Nick Thompson -
shsu＠HydroOne.com -
up＠3.am -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu