Normally I wouldn't do this but given that it's of-the-moment... fh ------------------------- http://www.salon.com/tech/giga_om/online_video/2009/01/20/a_quick_review_of_... Tuesday, January 20, 2009 08:02 PST A Quick Review of Obamas Inauguration Streams By Chris Albrecht You may have heard, but Barack Obama gets to ditch the -elect part of his title today as he will be sworn in (shortly) as our new President. Weve already provided an comprehensive list of where to watch the inauguration online, but heres a quick review of what to expect from some of them, so far. C-Spans coverage is not very impressive. The video window was small, and choppy. Avoid. CBS is offering 7 HD streams of the event, and they look awesome. Definitely the best of the lot worth watching. MSNBC, FOX (which is providing Hulus feed) and ABC Newss video is solid, nothing too flashy. They all work just fine (and I love that MSNBC allows embeds). Visit msnbc.com for Breaking News, World News, and News about the Economy I had problems with CNN. It was the only network that asked me to install an update to Flash as well as another plug-in. I skipped the second plug-in and it worked fine. The videos in widescreen, which is nice, and the Facebook integration gives you a running commentary. The Presidential Inauguration Committees stream is pretty dull, offering just imagery and no commentary. If our internal stats are any indication, this is going to be a huge day for live-streaming, and it looks like for the most part, every network involved is holding up and the Internet wont crash (of course, we still have an hour to go).
Better question is how well the cell systems are holding up in DC today??? But, that is slightly OT. -Mike On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Fred Heutte <aoxomoxoa@sunlightdata.com>wrote:
Normally I wouldn't do this but given that it's of-the-moment...
fh
-------------------------
http://www.salon.com/tech/giga_om/online_video/2009/01/20/a_quick_review_of_...
Tuesday, January 20, 2009 08:02 PST A Quick Review of Obama's Inauguration Streams By Chris Albrecht
You may have heard, but Barack Obama gets to ditch the "-elect" part of his title today as he will be sworn in (shortly) as our new President. We've already provided an comprehensive list of where to watch the inauguration online, but here's a quick review of what to expect from some of them, so far.
C-Span's coverage is not very impressive. The video window was small, and choppy. Avoid.
CBS is offering 7 HD streams of the event, and they look awesome. Definitely the best of the lot — worth watching.
MSNBC, FOX (which is providing Hulu's feed) and ABC News's video is solid, nothing too flashy. They all work just fine (and I love that MSNBC allows embeds).
Visit msnbc.com for Breaking News, World News, and News about the Economy
I had problems with CNN. It was the only network that asked me to install an update to Flash as well as another plug-in. I skipped the second plug-in and it worked fine. The video's in widescreen, which is nice, and the Facebook integration gives you a running commentary.
The Presidential Inauguration Committee's stream is pretty dull, offering just imagery and no commentary.
If our internal stats are any indication, this is going to be a huge day for live-streaming, and it looks like for the most part, every network involved is holding up and the Internet won't crash (of course, we still have an hour to go).
Cell networks held up reasonably well for voice, though SMS and MMS delivery times approached an hour during the event. Switch load in almost the entire US was higher than midnight on New Years (which is generally the highest load of the year). Our network has been preparing since June, and I assume likewise for others. -Jack Carrozzo (Engineer at $large cell company whose policy doesn't allow me to specify) On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 2:28 PM, Mike Lyon <mike.lyon@gmail.com> wrote:
Better question is how well the cell systems are holding up in DC today???
But, that is slightly OT.
-Mike
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Fred Heutte <aoxomoxoa@sunlightdata.com>wrote:
Normally I wouldn't do this but given that it's of-the-moment...
fh
-------------------------
http://www.salon.com/tech/giga_om/online_video/2009/01/20/a_quick_review_of_...
Tuesday, January 20, 2009 08:02 PST A Quick Review of Obama's Inauguration Streams By Chris Albrecht
You may have heard, but Barack Obama gets to ditch the "-elect" part of his title today as he will be sworn in (shortly) as our new President. We've already provided an comprehensive list of where to watch the inauguration online, but here's a quick review of what to expect from some of them, so far.
C-Span's coverage is not very impressive. The video window was small, and choppy. Avoid.
CBS is offering 7 HD streams of the event, and they look awesome. Definitely the best of the lot — worth watching.
MSNBC, FOX (which is providing Hulu's feed) and ABC News's video is solid, nothing too flashy. They all work just fine (and I love that MSNBC allows embeds).
Visit msnbc.com for Breaking News, World News, and News about the Economy
I had problems with CNN. It was the only network that asked me to install an update to Flash as well as another plug-in. I skipped the second plug-in and it worked fine. The video's in widescreen, which is nice, and the Facebook integration gives you a running commentary.
The Presidential Inauguration Committee's stream is pretty dull, offering just imagery and no commentary.
If our internal stats are any indication, this is going to be a huge day for live-streaming, and it looks like for the most part, every network involved is holding up and the Internet won't crash (of course, we still have an hour to go).
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Jack Carrozzo wrote:
Cell networks held up reasonably well for voice, though SMS and MMS delivery times approached an hour during the event. Switch load in almost the entire US was higher than midnight on New Years (which is generally the highest load of the year).
Our network has been preparing since June, and I assume likewise for others.
Unfortunately for me Sprint did not seem to prepare or have enough capacity for Voice, SMS or Data access. No live Twitter blogging! While I was able to get a few (maybe 5 between 10am and 2pm) text messages out while standing near the Washington Monument, calls and data were an impossibility, and SMS only seemed to have capacity available during lulls in the Inaugural activity. It was disappointing as a customer -- I'm sure that, had the capacity been there, the revenue from that single event would have made a significant impact on any of the carrier's revenue, at least for the month.
-Jack Carrozzo (Engineer at $large cell company whose policy doesn't allow me to specify)
(Google spills the beans!) I'm curious if you can find out -- did the record traffic positively affect revenue for that period compared to last year at the same time, or even last week on the same day? And from a more technical standpoint, did your $large cell company put up temporary towers? I'm curious as to how your company added capacity to handle the event, as well as how many "Network Busy" messages customers got, if any. I know I got more of those messages than I did successful communications. Beckman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't comment on revenue-generation, though access as a whole was quite high. We hardly had any voice IAs (Ineffective Attempts, or 'Busy' messages). Since data can be queued, the only thing that would cause data IAs are bad RF conditions - we had a TON of 'cell on wheels' in the area for the event so we had enough carrier space to cover it. In-network data response times were hardly affected, with switch loads well below 50%. In-network SMS were still getting to their destinations in under 5 seconds for the most part.... I don't have any numbers on MMS or mobile IP data at the moment, though I would have heard if something horrible had happened. I'm told that the out-of-network SMS queue was piling pretty high at one point, to delivery times up to an hour, though they all still got there. We can't control other network's switches obviously. This isn't trying to sound like an advertisement - *I'm* not affected either way if people sign up with us as I'm not in sales, however from my point of view it looks like we had the most solid network... Our guys were planning and setting things up since June. Cheers, -Jack Carrozzo On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Jack Carrozzo wrote:
Cell networks held up reasonably well for voice, though SMS and MMS delivery times approached an hour during the event. Switch load in almost the entire US was higher than midnight on New Years (which is generally the highest load of the year).
Our network has been preparing since June, and I assume likewise for others.
Unfortunately for me Sprint did not seem to prepare or have enough capacity for Voice, SMS or Data access. No live Twitter blogging!
While I was able to get a few (maybe 5 between 10am and 2pm) text messages out while standing near the Washington Monument, calls and data were an impossibility, and SMS only seemed to have capacity available during lulls in the Inaugural activity.
It was disappointing as a customer -- I'm sure that, had the capacity been there, the revenue from that single event would have made a significant impact on any of the carrier's revenue, at least for the month.
-Jack Carrozzo (Engineer at $large cell company whose policy doesn't allow me to specify)
(Google spills the beans!) I'm curious if you can find out -- did the record traffic positively affect revenue for that period compared to last year at the same time, or even last week on the same day?
And from a more technical standpoint, did your $large cell company put up temporary towers? I'm curious as to how your company added capacity to handle the event, as well as how many "Network Busy" messages customers got, if any. I know I got more of those messages than I did successful communications.
Beckman --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many simultaneous connections can each COW handle? What kind of backhaul connections do they have? -Mike On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Jack Carrozzo <jack@crepinc.com> wrote:
I can't comment on revenue-generation, though access as a whole was quite high.
We hardly had any voice IAs (Ineffective Attempts, or 'Busy' messages). Since data can be queued, the only thing that would cause data IAs are bad RF conditions - we had a TON of 'cell on wheels' in the area for the event so we had enough carrier space to cover it.
In-network data response times were hardly affected, with switch loads well below 50%. In-network SMS were still getting to their destinations in under 5 seconds for the most part.... I don't have any numbers on MMS or mobile IP data at the moment, though I would have heard if something horrible had happened.
I'm told that the out-of-network SMS queue was piling pretty high at one point, to delivery times up to an hour, though they all still got there. We can't control other network's switches obviously.
This isn't trying to sound like an advertisement - *I'm* not affected either way if people sign up with us as I'm not in sales, however from my point of view it looks like we had the most solid network... Our guys were planning and setting things up since June.
Cheers,
-Jack Carrozzo
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Jack Carrozzo wrote:
Cell networks held up reasonably well for voice, though SMS and MMS delivery times approached an hour during the event. Switch load in almost the entire US was higher than midnight on New Years (which is generally the highest load of the year).
Our network has been preparing since June, and I assume likewise for others.
Unfortunately for me Sprint did not seem to prepare or have enough capacity for Voice, SMS or Data access. No live Twitter blogging!
While I was able to get a few (maybe 5 between 10am and 2pm) text messages out while standing near the Washington Monument, calls and data were an impossibility, and SMS only seemed to have capacity available during lulls in the Inaugural activity.
It was disappointing as a customer -- I'm sure that, had the capacity been there, the revenue from that single event would have made a significant impact on any of the carrier's revenue, at least for the month.
-Jack Carrozzo (Engineer at $large cell company whose policy doesn't allow me to specify)
(Google spills the beans!) I'm curious if you can find out -- did the record traffic positively affect revenue for that period compared to last year at the same time, or even last week on the same day?
And from a more technical standpoint, did your $large cell company put up temporary towers? I'm curious as to how your company added capacity to handle the event, as well as how many "Network Busy" messages customers got, if any. I know I got more of those messages than I did successful communications.
Beckman
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't comment on revenue-generation, though access as a whole was quite high.
We hardly had any voice IAs (Ineffective Attempts, or 'Busy' messages). Since data can be queued, the only thing that would cause data IAs are bad RF conditions - we had a TON of 'cell on wheels' in the area for the event so we had enough carrier space to cover it.
In-network data response times were hardly affected, with switch loads well below 50%. In-network SMS were still getting to their destinations in under 5 seconds for the most part.... I don't have any numbers on MMS or mobile IP data at the moment, though I would have heard if something horrible had happened.
I'm told that the out-of-network SMS queue was piling pretty high at one point, to delivery times up to an hour, though they all still got there. We can't control other network's switches obviously.
This isn't trying to sound like an advertisement - *I'm* not affected either way if people sign up with us as I'm not in sales, however from my point of view it looks like we had the most solid network... Our guys were planning and setting things up since June.
Cheers,
-Jack Carrozzo
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Jack Carrozzo wrote:
Cell networks held up reasonably well for voice, though SMS and MMS delivery times approached an hour during the event. Switch load in almost the entire US was higher than midnight on New Years (which is generally the highest load of the year).
Our network has been preparing since June, and I assume likewise for others.
Unfortunately for me Sprint did not seem to prepare or have enough capacity for Voice, SMS or Data access. No live Twitter blogging!
While I was able to get a few (maybe 5 between 10am and 2pm) text messages out while standing near the Washington Monument, calls and data were an impossibility, and SMS only seemed to have capacity available during lulls in the Inaugural activity.
It was disappointing as a customer -- I'm sure that, had the capacity been there, the revenue from that single event would have made a significant impact on any of the carrier's revenue, at least for the month.
-Jack Carrozzo (Engineer at $large cell company whose policy doesn't allow me to specify)
(Google spills the beans!) I'm curious if you can find out -- did
record traffic positively affect revenue for that period compared to last year at the same time, or even last week on the same day?
And from a more technical standpoint, did your $large cell company
Just curious on that note with COW .. did you have much security related problems setting up stuff nearby? -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lyon [mailto:mike.lyon@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:52 PM To: Jack Carrozzo Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: inauguration streams review How many simultaneous connections can each COW handle? What kind of backhaul connections do they have? -Mike On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Jack Carrozzo <jack@crepinc.com> wrote: the put
up
temporary towers? I'm curious as to how your company added capacity to handle the event, as well as how many "Network Busy" messages customers got, if any. I know I got more of those messages than I did successful communications.
Beckman
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---
Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and contains confidential and/or privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender immediately and then destroy this transmission, including all attachments, without copying, distributing or disclosing same. Thank you."
COWs are more or less full sites - so standard N concurrent voice calls per carrier (check out the CDMA standard if you're really interested), times the number of carriers. They can do 850+PCS all carrier if configured that way. If we can grab fiber from a nearby building that's best (hence why this takes so long to plan), however a lot of time we rely on OC3 microwave backhaul. I wasn't involved with the DC guys as I'm in Boston so I don't know specifics of this event. Re: security, I don't know since I wasn't involved though since all the planning started so far back I doubt there was much issue. -Jack Carrozzo On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Paul Stewart <pstewart@nexicomgroup.net> wrote:
Just curious on that note with COW .. did you have much security related problems setting up stuff nearby?
-----Original Message----- From: Mike Lyon [mailto:mike.lyon@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:52 PM To: Jack Carrozzo Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: inauguration streams review
How many simultaneous connections can each COW handle? What kind of backhaul connections do they have?
-Mike
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Jack Carrozzo <jack@crepinc.com> wrote:
I can't comment on revenue-generation, though access as a whole was quite high.
We hardly had any voice IAs (Ineffective Attempts, or 'Busy' messages). Since data can be queued, the only thing that would cause data IAs are bad RF conditions - we had a TON of 'cell on wheels' in the area for the event so we had enough carrier space to cover it.
In-network data response times were hardly affected, with switch loads well below 50%. In-network SMS were still getting to their destinations in under 5 seconds for the most part.... I don't have any numbers on MMS or mobile IP data at the moment, though I would have heard if something horrible had happened.
I'm told that the out-of-network SMS queue was piling pretty high at one point, to delivery times up to an hour, though they all still got there. We can't control other network's switches obviously.
This isn't trying to sound like an advertisement - *I'm* not affected either way if people sign up with us as I'm not in sales, however from my point of view it looks like we had the most solid network... Our guys were planning and setting things up since June.
Cheers,
-Jack Carrozzo
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Jack Carrozzo wrote:
Cell networks held up reasonably well for voice, though SMS and MMS delivery times approached an hour during the event. Switch load in almost the entire US was higher than midnight on New Years (which is generally the highest load of the year).
Our network has been preparing since June, and I assume likewise for others.
Unfortunately for me Sprint did not seem to prepare or have enough capacity for Voice, SMS or Data access. No live Twitter blogging!
While I was able to get a few (maybe 5 between 10am and 2pm) text messages out while standing near the Washington Monument, calls and data were an impossibility, and SMS only seemed to have capacity available during lulls in the Inaugural activity.
It was disappointing as a customer -- I'm sure that, had the capacity been there, the revenue from that single event would have made a significant impact on any of the carrier's revenue, at least for the month.
-Jack Carrozzo (Engineer at $large cell company whose policy doesn't allow me to specify)
(Google spills the beans!) I'm curious if you can find out -- did
record traffic positively affect revenue for that period compared to last year at the same time, or even last week on the same day?
And from a more technical standpoint, did your $large cell company
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> wrote: the put up
temporary towers? I'm curious as to how your company added capacity to handle the event, as well as how many "Network Busy" messages customers got, if any. I know I got more of those messages than I did successful communications.
Beckman
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---
Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and contains confidential and/or privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender immediately and then destroy this transmission, including all attachments, without copying, distributing or disclosing same. Thank you."
Hi, quick question ... Most people here said they saw most of the inauguration traffic on TCP1935 to Limelight and UDP8247 to CNN. However, we were seeing it simply as "http" traffic (i.e. port 80), which made it very difficult to manage. Our inbound bandwidth was effectively maxed out for about 6 hours. I wonder what the discrepancy is between my experience and yours ... maybe the glass through which I am peering? We're analyzing / controlling WAN traffic with Exindas. Thanks, Adam ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Carrozzo" <jack@crepinc.com> To: "Paul Stewart" <pstewart@nexicomgroup.net> Cc: <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 2:01 PM Subject: Re: inauguration streams review COWs are more or less full sites - so standard N concurrent voice calls per carrier (check out the CDMA standard if you're really interested), times the number of carriers. They can do 850+PCS all carrier if configured that way. If we can grab fiber from a nearby building that's best (hence why this takes so long to plan), however a lot of time we rely on OC3 microwave backhaul. I wasn't involved with the DC guys as I'm in Boston so I don't know specifics of this event. Re: security, I don't know since I wasn't involved though since all the planning started so far back I doubt there was much issue. -Jack Carrozzo On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:54 PM, Paul Stewart <pstewart@nexicomgroup.net> wrote:
Just curious on that note with COW .. did you have much security related problems setting up stuff nearby?
-----Original Message----- From: Mike Lyon [mailto:mike.lyon@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:52 PM To: Jack Carrozzo Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: inauguration streams review
How many simultaneous connections can each COW handle? What kind of backhaul connections do they have?
-Mike
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:49 AM, Jack Carrozzo <jack@crepinc.com> wrote:
I can't comment on revenue-generation, though access as a whole was quite high.
We hardly had any voice IAs (Ineffective Attempts, or 'Busy' messages). Since data can be queued, the only thing that would cause data IAs are bad RF conditions - we had a TON of 'cell on wheels' in the area for the event so we had enough carrier space to cover it.
In-network data response times were hardly affected, with switch loads well below 50%. In-network SMS were still getting to their destinations in under 5 seconds for the most part.... I don't have any numbers on MMS or mobile IP data at the moment, though I would have heard if something horrible had happened.
I'm told that the out-of-network SMS queue was piling pretty high at one point, to delivery times up to an hour, though they all still got there. We can't control other network's switches obviously.
This isn't trying to sound like an advertisement - *I'm* not affected either way if people sign up with us as I'm not in sales, however from my point of view it looks like we had the most solid network... Our guys were planning and setting things up since June.
Cheers,
-Jack Carrozzo
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Jack Carrozzo wrote:
Cell networks held up reasonably well for voice, though SMS and MMS delivery times approached an hour during the event. Switch load in almost the entire US was higher than midnight on New Years (which is generally the highest load of the year).
Our network has been preparing since June, and I assume likewise for others.
Unfortunately for me Sprint did not seem to prepare or have enough capacity for Voice, SMS or Data access. No live Twitter blogging!
While I was able to get a few (maybe 5 between 10am and 2pm) text messages out while standing near the Washington Monument, calls and data were an impossibility, and SMS only seemed to have capacity available during lulls in the Inaugural activity.
It was disappointing as a customer -- I'm sure that, had the capacity been there, the revenue from that single event would have made a significant impact on any of the carrier's revenue, at least for the month.
-Jack Carrozzo (Engineer at $large cell company whose policy doesn't allow me to specify)
(Google spills the beans!) I'm curious if you can find out -- did
record traffic positively affect revenue for that period compared to last year at the same time, or even last week on the same day?
And from a more technical standpoint, did your $large cell company
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Peter Beckman <beckman@angryox.com> wrote: the put up
temporary towers? I'm curious as to how your company added capacity to handle the event, as well as how many "Network Busy" messages customers got, if any. I know I got more of those messages than I did successful communications.
Beckman
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---
Peter Beckman Internet Guy beckman@angryox.com http://www.angryox.com/
------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and contains confidential and/or privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender immediately and then destroy this transmission, including all attachments, without copying, distributing or disclosing same. Thank you."
* Adam Greene:
Hi, quick question ...
Most people here said they saw most of the inauguration traffic on TCP1935 to Limelight and UDP8247 to CNN. However, we were seeing it simply as "http" traffic (i.e. port 80), which made it very difficult to manage. Our inbound bandwidth was effectively maxed out for about 6 hours.
80/TCP is often used as fallback if the other methods fail to work. Have you got any filters on your network which might cause this?
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de> wrote:
* Adam Greene:
Hi, quick question ...
Most people here said they saw most of the inauguration traffic on TCP1935 to Limelight and UDP8247 to CNN. However, we were seeing it simply as "http" traffic (i.e. port 80), which made it very difficult to manage. Our inbound bandwidth was effectively maxed out for about 6 hours.
80/TCP is often used as fallback if the other methods fail to work. Have you got any filters on your network which might cause this?
This was our case. Websense blocked all the streaming protocols and p2p by default. It was difficult to isolate our legitimate business traffic from the streaming content sine it was all port 80/TCP/HTTP. Throughout the morning I was adding in streaming sites as they came in. We fared pretty well considering only one customer complaint and we were able to maintain 92% utilization or internet bandwidth(one point of saturation @ 98%).
Obama inauguration sets Web traffic record, Akamai says http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/012109-obama-inauguration-web-traffic.... -Hank
we wonder why they have not come up w/ a better word on that IT website, a "standard" ...maybe launching day ...or opening day .....:-) --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Hank Nussbacher <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> wrote:
From: Hank Nussbacher <hank@efes.iucc.ac.il> Subject: Re: inauguration streams review To: "Florian Weimer" <fw@deneb.enyo.de> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 7:15 PM Obama inauguration sets Web traffic record, Akamai says http://www.networkworld.com/news/2009/012109-obama-inauguration-web-traffic....
-Hank
participants (10)
-
Adam Greene -
Florian Weimer -
Fred Heutte -
Hank Nussbacher -
isabel dias -
Jack Carrozzo -
Mike -
Mike Lyon -
Paul Stewart -
Peter Beckman