Hey NANOG! I work at a datacenter in southern Colorado that is the upstream bandwidth provider for several regional ISPs. We have been investigating our ever-growing bandwidth usage and have found that out of transits (Level3,Cogent,HE) that Netflix always seems to come in via Hurricane Electric. (We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.) I tested this by advertising a /24 across all providers, then selectively removed the advertisement to certain carriers to see where the bandwidth goes. In order, it appears that if there is a HE route, Netflix uses it, period. If there isn't, it prefers Level3, and Cogent comes last. Since Netflix is a big hunk of our bandwidth (and obviously makes our customers happy), we are included to buy some more HE. However, if Netflix decides that they want to randomly switch to, say, Cogent, we may be under a year-long bandwidth contract that isn't particularly valuable anymore. With all of that, I am interested in finding out of any knowledge about Netflix transit preferences, be it inside information, anecdotal, or otherwise. I did email peering@ but haven't heard back, thus the public question. Thanks! Randal
On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:19 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
I work at a datacenter in southern Colorado that is the upstream bandwidth provider for several regional ISPs. We have been investigating our ever-growing bandwidth usage and have found that out of transits (Level3,Cogent,HE) that Netflix always seems to come in via Hurricane Electric. (We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.)
Your statement about peering makes no sense. You are trying to engineer where their traffic comes and yet you refuse to have a direct connection which would give you full control? Weird.......
I tested this by advertising a /24 across all providers, then selectively removed the advertisement to certain carriers to see where the bandwidth goes. In order, it appears that if there is a HE route, Netflix uses it, period. If there isn't, it prefers Level3, and Cogent comes last.
Completely unsurprising.
Since Netflix is a big hunk of our bandwidth (and obviously makes our customers happy), we are included to buy some more HE. However, if Netflix decides that they want to randomly switch to, say, Cogent, we may be under a year-long bandwidth contract that isn't particularly valuable anymore.
With all of that, I am interested in finding out of any knowledge about Netflix transit preferences, be it inside information, anecdotal, or otherwise. I did email peering@ but haven't heard back, thus the public question.
Why don't you ask Netflix? And why not ask them for kit to put on-net? <https://signup.netflix.com/openconnect> -- TTFN, patrick
On 12/27/2012 1:26 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:19 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
(We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.) Why don't you ask Netflix? And why not ask them for kit to put on-net? <https://signup.netflix.com/openconnect>
The last time we asked, their criteria was ~2.0gbps, so he doesn't have enough qualifying traffic. Has anyone looked at a Qwilt? http://www.qwilt.com/ Jeff
Perhaps you could get some subset of RMIX to approach Netflix collectively. -Steve -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Kell [mailto:jeff-kell@utc.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 11:33 AM To: Patrick W. Gilmore Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Netflix transit preference? On 12/27/2012 1:26 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:19 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
(We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.) Why don't you ask Netflix? And why not ask them for kit to put on-net? <https://signup.netflix.com/openconnect>
The last time we asked, their criteria was ~2.0gbps, so he doesn't have enough qualifying traffic. Has anyone looked at a Qwilt? http://www.qwilt.com/ Jeff
Steve, Yep, we are a member of the RMIX already incidentally, and we have an email in to the maintainer, CoreSite, to see if they can talk to Netflix about perhaps setting up shop in Denver. Or even about linking the Denver exchange to the LA or NY exchanges? I'm certain that a LOT of the west would really benefit from having Netflix in Denver. We'll see! Cheers, Randal On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Steve Dodd <steve.dodd@vision.net> wrote:
Perhaps you could get some subset of RMIX to approach Netflix collectively.
-Steve
-----Original Message----- From: Jeff Kell [mailto:jeff-kell@utc.edu] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 11:33 AM To: Patrick W. Gilmore Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Netflix transit preference?
On 12/27/2012 1:26 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:19 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
(We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.) Why don't you ask Netflix? And why not ask them for kit to put on-net? <https://signup.netflix.com/openconnect>
The last time we asked, their criteria was ~2.0gbps, so he doesn't have enough qualifying traffic.
Has anyone looked at a Qwilt? http://www.qwilt.com/
Jeff
Jeff Kell <jeff-kell@utc.edu> writes:
On 12/27/2012 1:26 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:19 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
(We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.) Why don't you ask Netflix? And why not ask them for kit to put on-net? <https://signup.netflix.com/openconnect>
The last time we asked, their criteria was ~2.0gbps, so he doesn't have enough qualifying traffic.
Has anyone looked at a Qwilt? http://www.qwilt.com/
MiM-ing streaming media providers is filed under "encourage my competitors to do this". It's likely to make your phone ring. -r
Hi all, We (Netflix) reached out to Randal off-list to explain how our transit/peering methodology works. Feel free to reach out to peering@netflix.com for questions like this in the future. -Dave On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 6:00 PM, Robert E. Seastrom <rs@seastrom.com> wrote:
Jeff Kell <jeff-kell@utc.edu> writes:
On 12/27/2012 1:26 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:19 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
(We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.) Why don't you ask Netflix? And why not ask them for kit to put on-net? <https://signup.netflix.com/openconnect>
The last time we asked, their criteria was ~2.0gbps, so he doesn't have enough qualifying traffic.
Has anyone looked at a Qwilt? http://www.qwilt.com/
MiM-ing streaming media providers is filed under "encourage my competitors to do this". It's likely to make your phone ring.
-r
Hey Patrick, Thanks for your prompt response. Yes, we are trying to determine where/how we receive it ... not necessarily influence it, as there isn't so much we can do there as Netflix' egress policy is theirs and theirs alone (interestingly, nobody has communities to influence Netflix' AS2906 traffic). We cannot peer directly with Netflix as their openconnect statement requires 2gbps minimum, and mentions elsewhere that the like 5+. We aren't at 2gbps yet, and we are nowhere near one of their POPs -- it is way cheaper to buy 2-3gbps of cheap transit than it is to buy 2-3gbps of transport from Denver to LA. As mentioned, my notes to peering@netflix.com have gone unanswered for the holidays (not unexpected), so I thought I'd ping the hive mind for some info in the meantime. Cheers, Randal On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Patrick W. Gilmore <patrick@ianai.net>wrote:
On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:19 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
I work at a datacenter in southern Colorado that is the upstream bandwidth provider for several regional ISPs. We have been investigating our ever-growing bandwidth usage and have found that out of transits (Level3,Cogent,HE) that Netflix always seems to come in via Hurricane Electric. (We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.)
Your statement about peering makes no sense. You are trying to engineer where their traffic comes and yet you refuse to have a direct connection which would give you full control? Weird.......
I tested this by advertising a /24 across all providers, then selectively removed the advertisement to certain carriers to see where the bandwidth goes. In order, it appears that if there is a HE route, Netflix uses it, period. If there isn't, it prefers Level3, and Cogent comes last.
Completely unsurprising.
Since Netflix is a big hunk of our bandwidth (and obviously makes our customers happy), we are included to buy some more HE. However, if Netflix decides that they want to randomly switch to, say, Cogent, we may be under a year-long bandwidth contract that isn't particularly valuable anymore.
With all of that, I am interested in finding out of any knowledge about Netflix transit preferences, be it inside information, anecdotal, or otherwise. I did email peering@ but haven't heard back, thus the public question.
Why don't you ask Netflix?
And why not ask them for kit to put on-net? < https://signup.netflix.com/openconnect>
-- TTFN, patrick
On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:46 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
Thanks for your prompt response. Yes, we are trying to determine where/how we receive it ... not necessarily influence it, as there isn't so much we can do there as Netflix' egress policy is theirs and theirs alone (interestingly, nobody has communities to influence Netflix' AS2906 traffic). We cannot peer directly with Netflix as their openconnect statement requires 2gbps minimum, and mentions elsewhere that the like 5+. We aren't at 2gbps yet, and we are nowhere near one of their POPs -- it is way cheaper to buy 2-3gbps of cheap transit than it is to buy 2-3gbps of transport from Denver to LA.
Ah, I misunderstood. Mea Culpa. I thought you were saying since they only had 1.4 Gbps to you, you wouldn't peer with them. Silly of me. The 2 Gbps is only for PNI, but yeah, I can see how paying to get to LA or Denver may be expensive. Although once you did, you could peer with a lot more than just Netflix. On the other hand, how much is it to get to Atlanta? Looks relatively close (miles-wise, don't know fiber routes in Tennessee). Anyway, while their egress decisions are theirs (as is true of everyone), they probably will be happy to discuss with you - once the holidays are over. -- TTFN, patrick
As mentioned, my notes to peering@netflix.com have gone unanswered for the holidays (not unexpected), so I thought I'd ping the hive mind for some info in the meantime.
Cheers, Randal
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Patrick W. Gilmore <patrick@ianai.net> wrote: On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:19 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
I work at a datacenter in southern Colorado that is the upstream bandwidth provider for several regional ISPs. We have been investigating our ever-growing bandwidth usage and have found that out of transits (Level3,Cogent,HE) that Netflix always seems to come in via Hurricane Electric. (We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.)
Your statement about peering makes no sense. You are trying to engineer where their traffic comes and yet you refuse to have a direct connection which would give you full control? Weird.......
I tested this by advertising a /24 across all providers, then selectively removed the advertisement to certain carriers to see where the bandwidth goes. In order, it appears that if there is a HE route, Netflix uses it, period. If there isn't, it prefers Level3, and Cogent comes last.
Completely unsurprising.
Since Netflix is a big hunk of our bandwidth (and obviously makes our customers happy), we are included to buy some more HE. However, if Netflix decides that they want to randomly switch to, say, Cogent, we may be under a year-long bandwidth contract that isn't particularly valuable anymore.
With all of that, I am interested in finding out of any knowledge about Netflix transit preferences, be it inside information, anecdotal, or otherwise. I did email peering@ but haven't heard back, thus the public question.
Why don't you ask Netflix?
And why not ask them for kit to put on-net? <https://signup.netflix.com/openconnect>
-- TTFN, patrick
More silliness was pointed out to me. I was looking at Jeff Kell's from: address and looked up UTC.edu to get your location, forgetting you mentioned Colorado in your original post. I'm going to sign off and enjoy the holidays since I clearly am not doing anyone any good here. -- TTFN, patrick On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:54 , Patrick W. Gilmore <patrick@ianai.net> wrote:
On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:46 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
Thanks for your prompt response. Yes, we are trying to determine where/how we receive it ... not necessarily influence it, as there isn't so much we can do there as Netflix' egress policy is theirs and theirs alone (interestingly, nobody has communities to influence Netflix' AS2906 traffic). We cannot peer directly with Netflix as their openconnect statement requires 2gbps minimum, and mentions elsewhere that the like 5+. We aren't at 2gbps yet, and we are nowhere near one of their POPs -- it is way cheaper to buy 2-3gbps of cheap transit than it is to buy 2-3gbps of transport from Denver to LA.
Ah, I misunderstood. Mea Culpa. I thought you were saying since they only had 1.4 Gbps to you, you wouldn't peer with them. Silly of me.
The 2 Gbps is only for PNI, but yeah, I can see how paying to get to LA or Denver may be expensive. Although once you did, you could peer with a lot more than just Netflix. On the other hand, how much is it to get to Atlanta? Looks relatively close (miles-wise, don't know fiber routes in Tennessee).
Anyway, while their egress decisions are theirs (as is true of everyone), they probably will be happy to discuss with you - once the holidays are over.
-- TTFN, patrick
As mentioned, my notes to peering@netflix.com have gone unanswered for the holidays (not unexpected), so I thought I'd ping the hive mind for some info in the meantime.
Cheers, Randal
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Patrick W. Gilmore <patrick@ianai.net> wrote: On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:19 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
I work at a datacenter in southern Colorado that is the upstream bandwidth provider for several regional ISPs. We have been investigating our ever-growing bandwidth usage and have found that out of transits (Level3,Cogent,HE) that Netflix always seems to come in via Hurricane Electric. (We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.)
Your statement about peering makes no sense. You are trying to engineer where their traffic comes and yet you refuse to have a direct connection which would give you full control? Weird.......
I tested this by advertising a /24 across all providers, then selectively removed the advertisement to certain carriers to see where the bandwidth goes. In order, it appears that if there is a HE route, Netflix uses it, period. If there isn't, it prefers Level3, and Cogent comes last.
Completely unsurprising.
Since Netflix is a big hunk of our bandwidth (and obviously makes our customers happy), we are included to buy some more HE. However, if Netflix decides that they want to randomly switch to, say, Cogent, we may be under a year-long bandwidth contract that isn't particularly valuable anymore.
With all of that, I am interested in finding out of any knowledge about Netflix transit preferences, be it inside information, anecdotal, or otherwise. I did email peering@ but haven't heard back, thus the public question.
Why don't you ask Netflix?
And why not ask them for kit to put on-net? <https://signup.netflix.com/openconnect>
-- TTFN, patrick
I'M they would be more then willing to work with you on the open connect appliance, specifically if you offered to pay for the hardware which I'M sure would come in a lot cheaper then transport/transit over 12 months. Carlos Alcantar Race Communications / Race Team Member 1325 Howard Ave. #604, Burlingame, CA. 94010 Phone: +1 415 376 3314 / carlos@race.com / http://www.race.com -----Original Message----- From: randal k <nanog@data102.com> Date: Thursday, December 27, 2012 10:46 AM To: "Patrick W. Gilmore" <patrick@ianai.net> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Netflix transit preference? Hey Patrick, Thanks for your prompt response. Yes, we are trying to determine where/how we receive it ... not necessarily influence it, as there isn't so much we can do there as Netflix' egress policy is theirs and theirs alone (interestingly, nobody has communities to influence Netflix' AS2906 traffic). We cannot peer directly with Netflix as their openconnect statement requires 2gbps minimum, and mentions elsewhere that the like 5+. We aren't at 2gbps yet, and we are nowhere near one of their POPs -- it is way cheaper to buy 2-3gbps of cheap transit than it is to buy 2-3gbps of transport from Denver to LA. As mentioned, my notes to peering@netflix.com have gone unanswered for the holidays (not unexpected), so I thought I'd ping the hive mind for some info in the meantime. Cheers, Randal On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Patrick W. Gilmore <patrick@ianai.net>wrote:
On Dec 27, 2012, at 13:19 , randal k <nanog@data102.com> wrote:
I work at a datacenter in southern Colorado that is the upstream bandwidth provider for several regional ISPs. We have been investigating our ever-growing bandwidth usage and have found that out of transits (Level3,Cogent,HE) that Netflix always seems to come in via Hurricane Electric. (We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.)
Your statement about peering makes no sense. You are trying to engineer where their traffic comes and yet you refuse to have a direct connection which would give you full control? Weird.......
I tested this by advertising a /24 across all providers, then selectively removed the advertisement to certain carriers to see where the bandwidth goes. In order, it appears that if there is a HE route, Netflix uses it, period. If there isn't, it prefers Level3, and Cogent comes last.
Completely unsurprising.
Since Netflix is a big hunk of our bandwidth (and obviously makes our customers happy), we are included to buy some more HE. However, if Netflix decides that they want to randomly switch to, say, Cogent, we may be under a year-long bandwidth contract that isn't particularly valuable anymore.
With all of that, I am interested in finding out of any knowledge about Netflix transit preferences, be it inside information, anecdotal, or otherwise. I did email peering@ but haven't heard back, thus the public question.
Why don't you ask Netflix?
And why not ask them for kit to put on-net? < https://signup.netflix.com/openconnect>
-- TTFN, patrick
Hurricane electric has a very open peering policy , can peer with them at any major Equinix with pretty much no push or pull requirements , which is why Netflix prefers them cause it costs them almost nothing , why pay hurricane for transit when most of there connectivity can be accessed by peer routes pretty much for free through Equinix exchange or any2... On Thursday, December 27, 2012, randal k wrote:
Hey NANOG! I work at a datacenter in southern Colorado that is the upstream bandwidth provider for several regional ISPs. We have been investigating our ever-growing bandwidth usage and have found that out of transits (Level3,Cogent,HE) that Netflix always seems to come in via Hurricane Electric. (We move ~1.4gbps to Netflix, and are thus not a candidate for peering. And they have no POP close.)
I tested this by advertising a /24 across all providers, then selectively removed the advertisement to certain carriers to see where the bandwidth goes. In order, it appears that if there is a HE route, Netflix uses it, period. If there isn't, it prefers Level3, and Cogent comes last.
Since Netflix is a big hunk of our bandwidth (and obviously makes our customers happy), we are included to buy some more HE. However, if Netflix decides that they want to randomly switch to, say, Cogent, we may be under a year-long bandwidth contract that isn't particularly valuable anymore.
With all of that, I am interested in finding out of any knowledge about Netflix transit preferences, be it inside information, anecdotal, or otherwise. I did email peering@ but haven't heard back, thus the public question.
Thanks! Randal
participants (8)
-
A. Pishdadi -
Carlos Alcantar -
David Temkin -
Jeff Kell -
Patrick W. Gilmore -
randal k -
Robert E. Seastrom -
Steve Dodd