From: Michael Dillon <michael@memra.com> Sure it has. But a lot of professionals have the attitude that details need to be hashed out discreetly in private so that a polished, professional front can be shown in public.
Naw, that's called "going behind your back", "back-stabbing", "beating around the bush", "behind closed doors", "smoke-filled rooms", and other derogatory statements. That's for politicians and management. Not professionals. polished != professional
I'm not saying that the desires of the public have changed, but that the attitudes of professionals have changed and are continuing to change.
Actually, I just think that more politicians and white-collar workers are calling themselves "professionals", which used to be reserved for doctors, engineers, professors (note the root), scientists, etc. Now, we have "sanitary waste-management engineers" (which has no educational requirement).... If the distinction escapes you, remember that traditionally a lawyer is an apprenticed tradesman, a judge is a professional. Every time I see some dingbat lawyer that adds "Esquire" after their name, I ask "Who is your knight? What liege have you sworn fealty?" Bill.Simpson@um.cc.umich.edu Key fingerprint = 2E 07 23 03 C5 62 70 D3 59 B1 4F 5E 1D C2 C1 A2
From: Michael Dillon <michael@memra.com> Sure it has. But a lot of professionals have the attitude that details need to be hashed out discreetly in private so that a polished, professional front can be shown in public.
Let's look at this statement and discuss professionalism a little for fun. Let's say that you and a team of engineers are planning a new program and budget. You have one idea, lets say.... 'WIDGETS r IT'. But another competing department under the same cost center firmly advocated 'GIZMOS r US'. Many bad managers and poorly organized groups of people enjoy having the two differnet positions argued in front of them because they enjoy the power of arbitrating between two different positions. Now, another firm believes in a differnet approach. The two opposing positions work together *before* going to the person with control of the money and works on a joint approach, looking at the strengths and weaknesses of the 'WIDGETS r IT' position and the 'GIZMOS r US' position. Instead of being attached emotionally to their ideas they detach from the situation personally and work together on the strengths and weakness' of the ideas and develop a comprehensive package and take it up the organization to the money person. Now, instead of arguing and a public power struggle, the organization works as a team, presenting the ideas to a decision maker who in-turn enjoys the pleasure of a team atmosphere. Of course, some managers and executives thrive on chaos and disharmony (the weak ones) and that is how they maintain control. If they can prove to their upper management that without their ability to arbitrate the mission fails or the goals are not met, then their position is secure. The Internet brings nothing to redefine professionalism, ethics nor human nature. It is just another medium to communicate. AND, just like all media, newspaper, telephone, smoke signals, telegraph..... there is good communication and poor communication. Patience, kindness, compassion, understanding, ojectivity, and ethical conscious are human aspirations that are grand human endeavors, much grander than pushing little datagrams around the wires. The problem, IMHO, are the architects and engineers whom have elevated the art of 'dump truck packet moving' to a goal loftier and more elegant than social consciousness. Nothing new nor redefining about that..... to believe otherwise is to form a opinion without being cognizant of history, human nature, and technical progress... and to exhibit a basic lack of insight into a macroview of the world. { can't see the forest for the trees; can't view the mountain living in the valley; Hmmmmm. Let's see... from eastern thought... Hmmmm. Fish believe the entire world is the ocean and fight and argue with frogs proclaiming the wonders of the land } I'll stop here. Don't want to push the 'hot buttons' on to many techno-dweebes that believe cutting code is the only worthy human pursuit :-) Regards, Tim -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Tim Bass | #include<campfire.h> | | Principal Network Systems Engineer | for(beer=100;beer>1;beer++){ | | The Silk Road Group, Ltd. | take_one_down(); | | | pass_it_around(); | | http://www.silkroad.com/ | } | | | back_to_work(); /*never reached */ | +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: Michael Dillon <michael@memra.com> Sure it has. But a lot of professionals have the attitude that details need to be hashed out discreetly in private so that a polished, professional front can be shown in public.
Let's look at this statement and discuss professionalism a little for fun.
ok tim, lets do that but just for fun :-) exactly how should the professional react to the following: [an earlier message from tim]...
Thanks for all the spam.....
these posting are like kindergarden of IP users with little answers like:
" please keep in mind that pings add traffic to the net "
Blah, blah. blah. I'm sure I'm not the only one on the net that considers these little ' oh, tie your shoe before walking ... so called, help messages ' and the ' make sure to put all the hair in your pants before zipping your zipper..... notes ... SPAMtastic
Honestly, how some people who just learned how to PING or do BGP now believe that everyone else on the net needs their advice on the net is a mystery.
a good manager praises in public, resolves 'personal' differences in private but that didn't work - no response. perhaps if we had ever met i might have seen some cause for the tirade above - we haven't. perhaps if i were some newby that "just learned to bgp" i'd have crawled back into some hole - i'm not. so forgive me if i have trouble sitting idly by while tim "waxes poetic" about the meaning of life and how to be a professional in the 90's. in your own words tim, "spamtastic" Jeff Young young@mci.net
This is getting personal and way off topic, so I'll take the 'middle road' with Jeff before we drag this down more, give a short response, and end it. ( with my financee in Germany for over a month, and absolutely no sleep last night, I cannot find the 'high road' this AM, sorry ... ) Whomever is superhuman, always speaks and rights exactly what they intend, always void of emotion and in complete understanding of all past and present (not to mention future) events and actions please continue this discussion without me :-) I am human and therefore not worthy to discuss professionalism nor any human condition. Thanks Jeff, for pointing that out. I need to be constantly reminded of my imperfections. I realize them myself, but appreciate your reminder and tact. .... we should all follow Jeff's example and when any human forwards or advocates an idea, no matter what the position, lets look for a human fault and or some 'not so perfect' assembly of symbols of expression (words) with 'not so perfect' foundation (human emotions) and use them to counter argue. It certainly works very well to defocus the discussion from one of ideas and aspirations and to create an interesting side show. Excellent counterpoint Jeff. It is impossible for me, unworthly, soiled, and defeated to continue in the ' has professionalism been redefined ?' thread. Tim
participants (3)
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Jeff Young
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Tim Bass
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William Allen Simpson