From: "Nigel Clarke" <nigel@forever-networks.com> To: "Jeff Ogden" <jogden@merit.edu>, <nanog@merit.edu> Subject: RE: Eat this RIAA (or, the war has begun?) - Why not all ISPs? Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:01:54 -0700

Jeff,

In a nutshell you're saying do nothing.

I actually got the impression that he was recommending that the ISP/backbone providers be careful in what they do since it is the end user that should determine who they communicate with. (I may have read this wrong though.) If an ISP or backbone provider does take any action(s) of the sort discussed, I would make really, really sure that the action is in accordance with the written policies... I also have the impression that, given the current state of litigation (both public and civil), that if a case (suit) were ever raised against NANOG and specific members by the RIAA, that these messages show a clear case for conspiracy... I an NOT a lawyer so you might want to consult with one... My own $0.02 worth. Regards, Gregory Hicks

-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Jeff Ogden Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 7:42 AM

At 10:32 PM -0700 8/21/02, Nigel Clarke wrote:

...

However, this type of action might not be necessary at all.

Some of the users on this list think RIAA's recent actions are

nothing more

...

than empty threats. Why doesn't NANOG make a few of its own?

A "polite" letter from a NANOG representative should do the trick.

Just to state the obvious, no one is authorized to represent NANOG in this fashion, not even folks here at Merit. NANOG isn't a decision making organization. NANOG isn't something that can take actions (other than holding a few meetings each year and managing this e-mail list).

Individuals and organizations that participate in NANOG can take actions, but not in NANOG's name. I'm no lawyer, but I suspect that lawyers should be consulted before taking individual or coordinated action of the sort being suggested against another organization.

Of course IPSs do take action against individuals or organizations all of the time, but they need to do that based on policies and procedures that take into account their obligations to their customers as well as their obligations under the law.

As an end user I really don't want my ISP to make decisions about who is allowed to communicate with me or who I am allowed to communicate with except when those decisions are based on policies designed to protect me or others from serious problems (DDOS attacks and the like), even then I want those policies to be written and available so I can review them, and I want them to be applied fairly.

As an ISP I really don't want my upstream ISPs to make decisions about who is allowed to communicate with my network or who my network is allowed to communicate with except under the conditions outlined in my agreements with those ISPs. This is important to me if I am in turn going to be able to meet my obligations to my own end users.

So, I really don't want the RIAA to tell me or my upstreams who I can't communicate with, but neither do I want my upstreams to tell me that I can't communicate with the RIAA or the labels if I (or really my customers) want to do so.

-Jeff Ogden Merit Network

At 10:32 PM -0700 8/21/02, Nigel Clarke wrote:

...

However, this type of action might not be necessary at all.

Some of the users on this list think RIAA's recent actions are nothing more than empty threats. Why doesn't NANOG make a few of its own?

A "polite" letter from a NANOG representative should do the trick.

-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of J.A. Terranson Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 7:01 PM To: Nigel Clarke Cc: Richard A Steenbergen; Jerry Eyers; nanog@merit.edu Subject: RE: Eat this RIAA (or, the war has begun?) - Why not all ISPs?

...

On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 09:08:03PM -0700, Nigel Clarke wrote:

...

Why don't larger ISPs follow through on this? Simply deny RIAA

any

...

access...

And what IPs precisely are you planning to deny? So far its all idle threats, we have no idea where they plan to launch their scans or hacking attempts from, or even if they have any clue how to hack anything. I highly doubt they'll be attaching riaa.com to it either.

The blocking of any an all directly RIAA sites, feeds, etc, would produce an economic reaction. Cut off their sales websites, their basic connectivity (how much money do you think it would cost them to go back to snail mail today?), their [few] subscription sites.

Let the money do the work.

Yours,

J.A. Terranson sysadmin@mfn.org

* SPEAKING STRICTLY IN A PERSONAL CAPACITY * at this time anyway. We'll see if we can't change that. Tomorrow. Goddamn right!

--------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory Hicks | Principal Systems Engineer Cadence Design Systems | Direct: 408.576.3609 555 River Oaks Pkwy M/S 6B1 | Fax: 408.894.3479 San Jose, CA 95134 | Internet: ghicks@cadence.com Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance or stupidity. Asking the wrong questions is the leading cause of wrong answers "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." --Alexander Hamilton You can have it done good, fast, or cheap -- pick any two.