A quick question for you guys; If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity. Any suggestions?
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 3:27 PM Nick Bogle <nick@bogle.se> wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
Look for an SHDSL Ethernet Extender -- - Andrew "lathama" Latham -
For a comparison of distance to capacity on copper, see http://www.impulse-corp.co.uk/knowledge-base/transmission-distance-and-speed... You might be able to pair bond -- if you had more than one pair. If wireless isn't possible, you're likely needing satellite. On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 12:35 PM Andrew Latham <lathama@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 3:27 PM Nick Bogle <nick@bogle.se> wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
Look for an SHDSL Ethernet Extender
-- - Andrew "lathama" Latham -
-- Jeremy Austin jhaustin@gmail.com (907) 895-2311 office (907) 803-5422 cell
I used to take “dry pairs” or “alarm circuits” and take SDSL modems to create high bandwidth ( up to 10Mbps, relative to the time) circuits. They were very reliable and incredibly cheap (@$22-88/mo). Regional bell at the time (or at least in my area) would make it difficult to order. Had to find the order codes. Looks like these new units are updates to what was around, but they were very testy on line quality/distance. the first rule … ‘no load’. Suggest trying the water in the shallow end first. LQ Marshall From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces+quincy.marshall=reged.com@nanog.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Austin Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:38 PM To: lathama@gmail.com Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair For a comparison of distance to capacity on copper, see http://www.impulse-corp.co.uk/knowledge-base/transmission-distance-and-speed... You might be able to pair bond -- if you had more than one pair. If wireless isn't possible, you're likely needing satellite. On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 12:35 PM Andrew Latham <lathama@gmail.com<mailto:lathama@gmail.com>> wrote: On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 3:27 PM Nick Bogle <nick@bogle.se<mailto:nick@bogle.se>> wrote: A quick question for you guys; If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity. Any suggestions? Look for an SHDSL Ethernet Extender -- - Andrew "lathama" Latham - -- Jeremy Austin jhaustin@gmail.com<mailto:jhaustin@gmail.com> (907) 895-2311 office (907) 803-5422 cell --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 01:25:32PM -0800, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
There's this[1], but only rated at one mile. This one[2] claims it can support 15.3Mbps over a single pair. Ray [1] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.amazon.com_Tupavco-2DEthernet-2DExtender-2DKit-2DRepeater-2DVDSL_dp_B01BOD8C9W_ref-3Dpd-5Fcp-5F147-5F2-3Fpd-5Frd-5Fw-3DjJF6B-26pf-5Frd-5Fp-3Def4dc990-2Da9ca-2D4945-2Dae0b-2Df8d549198ed6-26pf-5Frd-5Fr-3DYNZSNN4KVFDD0D7F28BC-26pd-5Frd-5Fr-3Dff2a9a7f-2Dfe54-2D11e8-2D9eb5-2Dcbf5e1b9be77-26pd-5Frd-5Fwg-3DYAFyN-26pd-5Frd-5Fi-3DB01BOD8C9W-26psc-3D1-26refRID-3DYNZSNN4KVFDD0D7F28BC&d=DwIBAg&c=n6-cguzQvX_tUIrZOS_4Og&r=r4NBNYp4yEcJxC11Po5I-w&m=TbF7NHyAPYAnOTcN0mP5L8Mx9bruJ3BQiMGiRuuEjag&s=1uB8i1QuuStq_4H-v8E2AvAuFwvzubQ5sfUHK81L598&e= [2] https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.patton.com_ethernet-2Dextender_cl1314mde_&d=DwIBAg&c=n6-cguzQvX_tUIrZOS_4Og&r=r4NBNYp4yEcJxC11Po5I-w&m=TbF7NHyAPYAnOTcN0mP5L8Mx9bruJ3BQiMGiRuuEjag&s=giCSQ1Y-mYPf-JQmTFLfqlg34eDZuCD87ScHf0sOR20&e=
Something LRE possibly. Could just do VDSL. Are you just looking at more than 1544 kbps or is there a particular threshold you need to meet (to support a camera, etc)? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 4:26 PM Nick Bogle <nick@bogle.se> wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
I’ve used the Patton copper link devices such as the one you mentioned Nick, and they work very well within the parameters they cover. Their tech-support is excellent also. -mel beckman On Dec 12, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Josh Luthman <josh@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote: Something LRE possibly. Could just do VDSL. Are you just looking at more than 1544 kbps or is there a particular threshold you need to meet (to support a camera, etc)? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 4:26 PM Nick Bogle <nick@bogle.se<mailto:nick@bogle.se>> wrote: A quick question for you guys; If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity. Any suggestions?
Nick Bogle wrote on 12/12/2018 3:25 PM:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
Blackbox makes a variety of different types of " network extenders" (aka bridges) - https://www.blackbox.com/en-us/products/black-box-brand-products/networking/... As others have said, 6 miles might limit your bandwidth capacity.
Whenever I have a dry pair I use fluke lube. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Blake Hudson Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 3:40 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair Nick Bogle wrote on 12/12/2018 3:25 PM:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
Blackbox makes a variety of different types of " network extenders" (aka bridges) - https://www.blackbox.com/en-us/products/black-box-brand-products/networking/... As others have said, 6 miles might limit your bandwidth capacity.
HA! But the question is; does it pass? ^^^ and that was my official 'first post' beware my linked in requests now😊 -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Phillip Carroll Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:53 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Extending network over a dry pair Whenever I have a dry pair I use fluke lube. -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Blake Hudson Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 3:40 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair Nick Bogle wrote on 12/12/2018 3:25 PM:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
Blackbox makes a variety of different types of " network extenders" (aka bridges) - https://www.blackbox.com/en-us/products/black-box-brand-products/networking/... As others have said, 6 miles might limit your bandwidth capacity. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The information contained in this electronic message may be confidential, and the message is for the use of intended recipients only. If you are not the intended recipient, do not disseminate, copy, or disclose this communication or its contents. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify me by replying to the email or call MIS Alliance at 617-500-1700 and permanently delete this communication.
Six miles is probably pushing it, but Proscend make some interesting Long- Range Ethernet SFP transciever which are VDSL based. They're horrendously documented and they draw *way* more power than the SFP specification allows. They also make a version which is design to terminate VDSL broadband circuits - A couple of those found their way to my desk recently and it turns out that despite the horrendous documentation and sightly scary heat output (they come with a little paper note in the box which says something along the lines of "WARNING! MODULE GETS HOT - DO NOT TOUCH DURING OPERATION."), they do generally Just Work! ~a On Wed, Dec 12, 2018, at 9:25 PM, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.> Any suggestions?
Actellis also makes some ethernet over dry pair gear. The only issue is that they require repeaters like a T1 (different spacing though). I'm guessing if you're doing T1 at that distance you already have repeater housings in the field at least. -----Original Message----- From: "Alfie Pates" <alfie@fdx.services> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:42pm To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair Six miles is probably pushing it, but Proscend make some interesting Long-Range Ethernet SFP transciever which are VDSL based. They're horrendously documented and they draw *way* more power than the SFP specification allows. They also make a version which is design to terminate VDSL broadband circuits - A couple of those found their way to my desk recently and it turns out that despite the horrendous documentation and sightly scary heat output (they come with a little paper note in the box which says something along the lines of "WARNING! MODULE GETS HOT - DO NOT TOUCH DURING OPERATION."), they do generally Just Work! ~a On Wed, Dec 12, 2018, at 9:25 PM, Nick Bogle wrote: A quick question for you guys; If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity. Any suggestions?
Rent a cable plow and make a quick run of fiber during the night. Nobody will notice. :-) 6 miles is too far to get any speed on a phone line.
Look at a Hatteras hn400 and lpu You can get about 5mbs/pair using g.shdsl. pairs can be bonded to add capacity (assuming at least 2 pair for t-1). The repeaters fit in a standard 248 closure. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> on behalf of Baldur Norddahl <baldur.norddahl@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 4:19:21 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair Rent a cable plow and make a quick run of fiber during the night. Nobody will notice. :-) 6 miles is too far to get any speed on a phone line.
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:25 PM Nick Bogle <nick@bogle.se> wrote:
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore.
Hi Nick, Where are the repeaters? Even using HDSL or VDSL, 1.5mbps T1s don't generally extend 30,000 feet without repeaters. Depending on how far apart the repeaters are and whether you can substitute other equipment, you may have lots of options or none at all. Also, tell us more about the terrain. Just because you don't think it's suitable for ptp wireless doesn't necessarily mean that wireless can't usefully play a role in a hybrid solution. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin ................ herrin@dirtside.com bill@herrin.us Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 1:25 PM Nick Bogle <nick@bogle.se> wrote:
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc)
Also, if there's power and dry pair copper to the site then there are utility poles to the site that are grandfathered under whatever the current regulations are. Since poles rot and trees take down wires there must also be provisions for maintaining them. A good lawyer can probably figure out how you can add a cable to those existing poles without running afoul of the regs, particularly since its in service to a research site. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin ................ herrin@dirtside.com bill@herrin.us Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco CO. I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any faster than you're getting with T1. You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/ -Dan
For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached). I picked these up for a sawbuck. Tim On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco CO.
I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any faster than you're getting with T1.
You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/
-Dan
I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection. I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3 miles. -Dan On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:
For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached). I picked these up for a sawbuck.
Tim
On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco CO.
I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any faster than you're getting with T1.
You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/
-Dan
It really does seem like repeaters are a necessity. If he can put power down the wires, and get to them to install repeaters, that would seem the obvious way to go. Miles On 12/12/18 9:32 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:
I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection.
I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3 miles.
-Dan
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:
For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached). I picked these up for a sawbuck.
Tim
On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco CO.
I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any faster than you're getting with T1.
You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/
-Dan
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
The driving distance is 4 miles, we are leasing it from CenturyLink whose headend maybe adds a mile or less, it's on the route and about half way through. I made it 6 miles to be safe. We currently can pull a full 1.5Mbps off of that T1 we run there so perhaps CenturyLink is repeating at their CO and/or along the route? On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 6:32 PM Dan Hollis <goemon@sasami.anime.net> wrote:
I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection.
I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3 miles.
-Dan
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:
For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached). I picked these up for a sawbuck.
Tim
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for
On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote: phones)
to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco CO.
I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any faster than you're getting with T1.
You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/
-Dan
With CL in the middle, EoC might be an option. Personally, I'd find a local WISP and see what they can come up with for you. On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 10:01 PM Nick Bogle <nick@bogle.se> wrote:
The driving distance is 4 miles, we are leasing it from CenturyLink whose headend maybe adds a mile or less, it's on the route and about half way through. I made it 6 miles to be safe. We currently can pull a full 1.5Mbps off of that T1 we run there so perhaps CenturyLink is repeating at their CO and/or along the route?
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 6:32 PM Dan Hollis <goemon@sasami.anime.net> wrote:
I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection.
I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3 miles.
-Dan
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:
For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached). I picked these up for a sawbuck.
Tim
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for
to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender
On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote: phones) that
uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco CO.
I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any faster than you're getting with T1.
You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/
-Dan
Repeaters are standard for T1s. I strongly suggest looking at wireless. There is almost guaranteed to be a spot you can put a repeater up to bridge you to your gateway. -Dan On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
The driving distance is 4 miles, we are leasing it from CenturyLink whose headend maybe adds a mile or less, it's on the route and about half way through. I made it 6 miles to be safe. We currently can pull a full 1.5Mbps off of that T1 we run there so perhaps CenturyLink is repeating at their CO and/or along the route?
On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 6:32 PM Dan Hollis <goemon@sasami.anime.net> wrote:
I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection.
I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3 miles.
-Dan
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:
For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached). I picked these up for a sawbuck.
Tim
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for
On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote: phones)
to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco CO.
I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any faster than you're getting with T1.
You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/
-Dan
Repeaters are standard for T1s.
I strongly suggest looking at wireless. There is almost guaranteed to be a spot you can put a repeater up to bridge you to your gateway.
Maybe this has been mentioned, and I missed it, but: A hybrid solution could also be considered. You could use a shorter dry pair to get around whatever obstacle is
On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 4:22 PM Dan Hollis <goemon@sasami.anime.net> wrote: preventing wireless, and then use wireless the rest of the way.
On Dec 13, 2018, at 4:27 PM, Hunter Fuller <hf0002+nanog@uah.edu> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 13, 2018 at 4:22 PM Dan Hollis <goemon@sasami.anime.net> wrote: Repeaters are standard for T1s.
I strongly suggest looking at wireless. There is almost guaranteed to be a spot you can put a repeater up to bridge you to your gateway.
Maybe this has been mentioned, and I missed it, but: A hybrid solution could also be considered. You could use a shorter dry pair to get around whatever obstacle is preventing wireless, and then use wireless the rest of the way.
Any chance the OP could show us on, say, Google Maps, where this is at? Maybe that will help generate some innovative solutions. -Andy
You can’t push a T1 through a load-coil which are normally placed every mile on copper. Typically the telco would cut the load-coil out of the 2 T1 pairs and install a repeater to push the T1 the next mile. That is with a traditional T1 circuit. Most T1s these days are 2 wire HDSL which has a max of about 12k feet. So for 6 miles you’ll need 3 repeaters in the span *if* you have good copper. From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> on behalf of Nick Bogle <nick@bogle.se> Date: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 10:00 PM To: Dan Hollis <goemon@sasami.anime.net> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair The driving distance is 4 miles, we are leasing it from CenturyLink whose headend maybe adds a mile or less, it's on the route and about half way through. I made it 6 miles to be safe. We currently can pull a full 1.5Mbps off of that T1 we run there so perhaps CenturyLink is repeating at their CO and/or along the route? On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 6:32 PM Dan Hollis <goemon@sasami.anime.net<mailto:goemon@sasami.anime.net>> wrote: I doubt he will get >1.5mbps with those over a 6 mile long connection. I did a quick check and flowpoint 2200s seem to max out at 192kbps at 3 miles. -Dan On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Tim Pozar wrote:
For dry pairs, I have used Flowpoint SDSL modems (see attached). I picked these up for a sawbuck.
Tim
On 12/12/18 5:00 PM, Dan Hollis wrote:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco CO.
I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any faster than you're getting with T1.
You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/
-Dan
You don't even need LOS to move more than 1.5 megabit/s over wireless. I think the best bet is to consult people that actually know wireless. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Hollis" <goemon@sasami.anime.net> To: "Nick Bogle" <nick@bogle.se> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 7:00:23 PM Subject: Re: Extending network over a dry pair On Wed, 12 Dec 2018, Nick Bogle wrote:
A quick question for you guys;
If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher bandwidth capacity.
Any suggestions?
If this is telco provided dry pair then the distance is probably longer than 6 miles as the endpoints are probably tied together through a telco CO. I have not heard of any equipment which will work over a 6 mile pair any faster than you're getting with T1. You might consider setting up wireless repeaters to bridge where there is no direct LOS. Look at what the hamwan guys have done. http://hamwan.org/ -Dan
participants (24)
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Alfie Pates -
Andrew Latham -
Andy Ringsmuth -
Baldur Norddahl -
Blake Hudson -
Carl Peterson -
Chris Kimball -
Dan Hollis -
Grant Taylor -
Hunter Fuller -
Jameson, Daniel -
Jeremy Austin -
Josh Luthman -
Marshall, Quincy -
Matthew Crocker -
Mel Beckman -
Mike Hammett -
Miles Fidelman -
Nick Bogle -
Phillip Carroll -
Ray Van Dolson -
Shawn L -
Tim Pozar -
William Herrin