http://volokh.com/2010/06/13/32843/ What happens when the US shuts down part of its part? Depends on what part it shut down, of course. But what are the available boundaries for the parts in question? Will that have to change? For example--what happens when name-service information for a part that is not shutdown comes from a part that is? What if an exchange point for parts that are not shutdown is shutdown. And spare me the tinfoil hat stuff--tinfoil hats have not worked for a year or more. -- Somebody should have said: A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Eppure si rinfresca ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
Generally speaking, it will be treated as damage and routed around. Owen On Jun 12, 2010, at 10:21 PM, Larry Sheldon wrote:
http://volokh.com/2010/06/13/32843/
What happens when the US shuts down part of its part?
Depends on what part it shut down, of course.
But what are the available boundaries for the parts in question?
Will that have to change?
For example--what happens when name-service information for a part that is not shutdown comes from a part that is?
What if an exchange point for parts that are not shutdown is shutdown.
And spare me the tinfoil hat stuff--tinfoil hats have not worked for a year or more. -- Somebody should have said: A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Eppure si rinfresca
ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
Taking into account a submarine cable structure like this: http://www.telegeography.com/product-info/map_cable/images/cable_map_2010_la... And that satellite connections have very high latency. I think the idea of routing around will be, at least, a performance hell. On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 09:50, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
Generally speaking, it will be treated as damage and routed around.
Owen
Generally speaking, it will be treated as damage and routed around.
That fable only really stands a chance when the damage is accidental; in the case where such "damage" is being deliberately inflicted, particularly by government, it gets more complicated. A lot of the 'net is a little more centralized than it ought to be in order to allow the "routed around" concept to work successfully. ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net "We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN) With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.
On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Joe Greco <jgreco@ns.sol.net> wrote:
Generally speaking, it will be treated as damage and routed around.
That fable only really stands a chance when the damage is accidental; in the case where such "damage" is being deliberately inflicted, particularly by government, it gets more complicated. A lot of the 'net is a little more centralized than it ought to be in order to allow the "routed around" concept to work successfully.
... JG
BTW, I forget, when was the original ARPANET spec of surviving a nuclear war tested? I mean, we do know what would happen, right? Yes, Joe, the ARPANET fable does lives on. Bruce Williams
On 06/13/2010 06:13 PM, Bruce Williams wrote:
On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 6:42 AM, Joe Greco <jgreco@ns.sol.net> wrote:
Generally speaking, it will be treated as damage and routed around.
That fable only really stands a chance when the damage is accidental; in the case where such "damage" is being deliberately inflicted, particularly by government, it gets more complicated. A lot of the 'net is a little more centralized than it ought to be in order to allow the "routed around" concept to work successfully.
... JG
BTW, I forget, when was the original ARPANET spec of surviving a nuclear war tested? I mean, we do know what would happen, right?
Paul baran's rand paper was on survivable networks. The arpanet was not that network.
Yes, Joe, the ARPANET fable does lives on.
Bruce Williams
On 6/13/2010 20:21, Joel Jaeggli wrote:
Paul Baran's rand paper was on survivable networks. The arpanet was not that network.
I worry now if it will survive the people that operate it. -- Somebody should have said: A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Eppure si rinfresca ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
On 6/13/2010 07:50, Owen DeLong wrote:
Generally speaking, it will be treated as damage and routed around.
Nothing to see here. Move along. Nothing to worry about. Have a nice day. -- Somebody should have said: A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Eppure si rinfresca ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 00:21:49 CDT, Larry Sheldon said:
For example--what happens when name-service information for a part that is not shutdown comes from a part that is?
It's always been a BCP good idea to have your DNS have secondaries in another non-fate-sharing AS, even though everybody from Microsoft on down seems to feel the need to rediscover this.
On 6/13/2010 3:47 PM, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
It's always been a BCP good idea to have your DNS have secondaries in another non-fate-sharing AS, even though everybody from Microsoft on down seems to feel the need to rediscover this.
Postel used to advise having them on different tectonics plates (and sources of power, of course.) Conflating the "liberal in what you accept" advise, it might be wise to accept tectonic as covering tectonic shifts in politics, as well as land masses. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net
On 6/13/2010 08:47, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 00:21:49 CDT, Larry Sheldon said:
For example--what happens when name-service information for a part that is not shutdown comes from a part that is?
It's always been a BCP good idea to have your DNS have secondaries in another non-fate-sharing AS, even though everybody from Microsoft on down seems to feel the need to rediscover this.
How about if the source database (not the relevant zone file, but the collection of data on some computer from which a zone file is created. How about the case where the master zone file has be amputated and the secondaries can no longer get updates? -- Somebody should have said: A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting the vote. Requiescas in pace o email Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Eppure si rinfresca ICBM Targeting Information: http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml
On 6/13/10 1:11 PM, Seth Mattinen wrote:
On 6/13/10 9:35 AM, Larry Sheldon wrote:
How about the case where the master zone file has be amputated and the secondaries can no longer get updates?
We just saw that with Haiti.
This overlooks the consequences of that particular catastrophic event on locally routed, and indifferently named resources, within the area directly affected by the event. The hard, even desperate struggle, to keep the physical level infrastructure powered, and operate link and above level services, using pre-event and ad hoc post-event resource to address mappings was not an exercise staged to demonstrate server configuration errors (these happen quite frequently, and without casualties) or network partition events (these too happen quite frequently, also without casualties). The Lieberman, Collins (R-ME) and Carper bill, like the Rockefeller and Snowe (R-ME) bill, offers nothing to the repair, or proactive resilience of the Haitian network. I am content that Congresswoman Chellie Pingree, of Maine's 1st CD, assisted significantly in the effort to keep the Boutillier facility fueled in the last weeks of January. Network infrastructure security can be distinguished from cybersecurity in the first instance by actual existence. Eric
On 6/13/2010 08:47, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Sun, 13 Jun 2010 00:21:49 CDT, Larry Sheldon said:
For example--what happens when name-service information for a part that is not shutdown comes from a part that is?
It's always been a BCP good idea to have your DNS have secondaries in another non-fate-sharing AS, even though everybody from Microsoft on down seems to feel the need to rediscover this.
How about if the source database (not the relevant zone file, but the collection of data on some computer from which a zone file is created.
How about [...] is /what/? Unavailable? The zone files are still in place. Not really a problem in the overall scheme of things; I realize that some people have engineered things so that this will be a problem, but that's a choice.
How about the case where the master zone file has be amputated and the secondaries can no longer get updates?
I'm not sure what "amputated" means here, but considering the case where the master itself is amputated, and the secondaries can no longer update, generally speaking, you log into the secondaries and twiddle their configs to make them masters. This requires some planning, preparedness, and procedures, but is in no way a crisis, unless you've failed to do the planning, have failed to prepare, and haven't followed your procedures. How that works in the case where a government mandates something specific happens within your zone file is of course debatable, but possibly more back towards the original topic. ... JG -- Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net "We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN) With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.
For example--what happens when name-service information for a part that is not shutdown comes from a part that is?
What if an exchange point for parts that are not shutdown is shutdown.
And spare me the tinfoil hat stuff--tinfoil hats have not worked for a year or more. -- Somebody should have said: A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
We can play "what if" all day long and wargame all sorts of scenarios but what it all boils down to is that there is really no such thing as "The Internet". Just exactly how would the government implement any policy that involved shutting things down and to what extent could they accomplish anything without hurting themselves? What if your NSP is a foreign company? Can our government tell a French company that they cannot communicate with someone else? Can our government tell any American company that they cannot communicate with another American company within the US? Do you "white list" certain communicators and allow them access while denying others? If so, how do you prevent your white list from becoming obsolete the day after it is produced? When you start disconnecting data communications you begin to impact such things as voice communications, news media dissemination of information, individuals in key positions losing a communications path, etc. The notion of government being able to "shut down" portions of "the internet" sounds easy to do in theory but I am not sure it has been thought through at the practical level. I would seem to me that the only effective way one could implement such a policy is to initially shut down ALL communications and then gradually certify various nodes for reinstatement into the net. I have no confidence that the government could ever pull such a thing off. G
participants (11)
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Bruce Williams -
Daniel -
Dave CROCKER -
Eric Brunner-Williams -
George Bonser -
Joe Greco -
Joel Jaeggli -
Larry Sheldon -
Owen DeLong -
Seth Mattinen -
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