This entire discussion reminds me of the way they do business on the streets of New York City when it comes to vendors. It is ILLEGAL to sell a vending license in the city of new york. That, however, does not prevent some enterprising individuals from selling the use of carts to vend goods along with a free license thrown in. It also does not prevent someone from selling not an IP address block, but selling ownership of a company that happens to own an IP address block. The geometric possibilities alone are astounding..... -dave netreach
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, 0000-Admin(0000) wrote:
This entire discussion reminds me of the way they do business on the streets of New York City when it comes to vendors. It is ILLEGAL to sell a vending license in the city of new york. That, however, does not prevent some enterprising individuals from selling the use of carts to vend goods along with a free license thrown in.
It also does not prevent someone from selling not an IP address block, but selling ownership of a company that happens to own an IP address block. The geometric possibilities alone are astounding.....
Yes, but the new company must justify the space to the nic. Nathan Stratton President, NetRail,Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phone (888)NetRail NetRail, Inc. Fax (404)522-1939 230 Peachtree Suite 500 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Atlanta, GA 30303 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Nathan Stratton wrote:
It also does not prevent someone from selling not an IP address block, but selling ownership of a company that happens to own an IP address block. The geometric possibilities alone are astounding.....
Yes, but the new company must justify the space to the nic.
Why? Is there a signed contract tht says I must return unwanted/unused space to the nic? If so lets go recollect all those IPs being wasted by Frito-Lay, MIT, and countless other orignizations that got their space before anyone had to justify needs for IP space. Face it, all the nic is, is a 'globally' (not totally true but good enough for our purposes) storage facility that allocates its resources on a first come, as needed basis. If I have a stockpile of typing paper that I'm willing to sell because I don't need it should I sent it back to the wharehouse or should I sell it to the guy next door who's willing to give me 10 bucks per carton? You are assuming that the nic/ARIN is the end all be all of IP space, and thats just not true. I could for example go to IANA and request space (no doubt they would turn me down unless I had a damn good reason) if I wanted to, one does _NOT_ have to go through the Nic/ARIN. [-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
On Mar 9, 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
Why? Is there a signed contract tht says I must return unwanted/unused space to the nic?
No, but by the same token, you do not own your IP addresses, you simply have the right to use them. You never signed anything that said you _do_ have unlimited rights to them, so by your logic the NIC (or IANA) is completely within its rights to take away said IP address and re-assign them to somebody who will actually use them.
Face it, all the nic is, is a 'globally' (not totally true but good enough for our purposes) storage facility that allocates its resources on a first come, as needed basis. If I have a stockpile of typing paper that I'm willing to sell because I don't need it should I sent it back to the wharehouse or should I sell it to the guy next door who's willing to give me 10 bucks per carton?
Paper is a renewable resource; IP addresses are _definitely_ not in this category.
You are assuming that the nic/ARIN is the end all be all of IP space, and thats just not true. I could for example go to IANA and request space (no doubt they would turn me down unless I had a damn good reason) if I wanted to, one does _NOT_ have to go through the Nic/ARIN.
Granted the InterNIC is not the end all and be all of IP address allocation, but the point is that _somebody_ is almost certainly going to have something to say about the auctioning of IP addresses. Alec -- +------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ |Alec Peterson - ahp@hilander.com | Erols Internet Services, INC. | |Network Engineer | Springfield, VA. | +------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
On Sun, 9 Mar 1997, Alec H. Peterson wrote:
No, but by the same token, you do not own your IP addresses, you simply have the right to use them. You never signed anything that said you _do_ have unlimited rights to them, so by your logic the NIC (or IANA) is completely within its rights to take away said IP address and re-assign them to somebody who will actually use them.
Ok, I'm leasing it, consider my 'sale' of such as sublease, if I'm paying money for it (which indeed I am with ARIN) then I certainly have some rights. Add to which (and god how I hate sounding like flemming or denniger here but..) who voted them to be the end all be all of IP allocations? I could, if I so desired, right now, pull 223.223.0.0 out of my ass and start routing it, and the nic/arin/IANA couldn't do squat about it. Core router operators could, but thats a whole different discussion.
Paper is a renewable resource; IP addresses are _definitely_ not in this category.
BUt you just said they were via recylcin unused space, so which is it?
Granted the InterNIC is not the end all and be all of IP address allocation, but the point is that _somebody_ is almost certainly going to have something to say about the auctioning of IP addresses.
Oh, I don't doubt for a moment they'll have something to say about it, I'm just debating on if their comments will be of any value as such. Its no less than what they're doing (though they do provide some halfassed database management to kee the records straight) but they're selling/leasing/auctioning space as welll, even if it is under the guise of our own best interests. [-] Brett L. Hawn (blh @ nol dot net) [-] [-] Networks On-Line - Houston, Texas [-] [-] 713-467-7100 [-]
This is really more appropriate on NAIPR, so replies are directed there... On Mar 9, 1997, Brett L. Hawn wrote:
Ok, I'm leasing it, consider my 'sale' of such as sublease, if I'm paying money for it (which indeed I am with ARIN) then I certainly have some rights.
No, that is _not_ what paying ARIN gives you rights to. All you pay ARIN for is the registration service, not for the addresses themselves (be it a lease or a sale).
Add to which (and god how I hate sounding like flemming or denniger here but..) who voted them to be the end all be all of IP allocations?
Please don't go there, that's a whole can of worms that has already been discussed many times.
I could, if I so desired, right now, pull 223.223.0.0 out of my ass and start routing it, and the nic/arin/IANA couldn't do squat about it. Core router operators could, but thats a whole different discussion.
There is nothing they can _directly_ do about it, however there is a substantial amount that they can do indirectly. At any rate, this is not relavent in the sale of IP addresses (which is the discussion at hand).
BUt you just said they were via recylcin unused space, so which is it?
There is a big difference between a 'recycable' resource and a 'renewable' one.
Oh, I don't doubt for a moment they'll have something to say about it, I'm just debating on if their comments will be of any value as such.
History has shown that they will be.
Its no less than what they're doing (though they do provide some halfassed database management to kee the records straight) but they're selling/leasing/auctioning space as welll, even if it is under the guise of our own best interests.
Look, this has all been gone over many times, and really is not all that relavent to the discussion at hand. The point is that it is one cannot very well sell something that one does not own. Well, said person can try to sell it, but the person who buys it might end up being disappointed when he/she cannot justify the space to the InterNIC/ARIN and has it revoked. Alec -- +------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+ |Alec Peterson - ahp@hilander.com | Erols Internet Services, INC. | |Network Engineer | Springfield, VA. | +------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
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