At 09:42 PM 9/12/2001, Robert Hough wrote:
The security we display in most aspects of our society echo the same security we display in most of our networks as well.
Now ask yourself, why was it so easy to hijack these planes? Because we have sacrificed security for convenience - and our enemy used that against us. Well, something to chew on. G'Night.
Can someone explain to me how only allowing ticketed passengers past security checkpoints is going to accomplish anything toward increased security? The only thing I can even dream of is that it will reduce the number of people passing the checkpoints.
I have a feeling this one isn't going to stick. Most airports weren't designed for this. I pick people up from O'Hare at least a few times a month. Other than the baggage claim (which is nearly packed during busy times) where can you meet someone? I'd venture to say at least 25% of the people hanging out in the gate areas are there to pick people up. Where are these people going to go? If I remember correctly each of the baggage claim levels at O'hare has one set of bathrooms, and at most one place to buy a drink at. There's almost nowhere to sit. The monitors aren't showing info about flights except those that have landed. People who normally wouldn't have to go to the baggage claim at all (no bags checked) are going to have to go there to meet people, adding to the crowding even more. There's just nowhere else to do this. Adding to the fact that after this alot of people are *really* nervous about flying, and having a friendly face there at the gate for them is important. In addition, this requires you to coordinate *where* you're going to meet someone, rather than just being able to be at the gate they're arriving at. I realize the significance of making changes in the wake of this, however this one is (in my opinion) really unacceptable. I sent a letter off to the director of the FAA today expressing similar thoughts. If you feel the same way, you may wish to as well. I know I'm probably not very popular right now, to be complaining about "added security", but the very weak additional security this may provide is already outweighed by much much bigger weaknesses elsewhere. If the problem is wanting more time spent at the checkpoints, I've *never* seen all the checkpoints open at a time, on any of the terminals. Opening more up couldn't hurt. I know this is really getting non-operational, but keep this in mind if any of you are getting called to meet&greet people at the airport over the next few weeks. I spent a good amount of time today dealing with this very problem with some travellers coming here over the coming weeks. -- Kevin
| I have a feeling this one isn't going to stick. Most airports weren't | designed for this. I pick people up from O'Hare at least a few times a | month. Other than the baggage claim (which is nearly packed during busy | times) where can you meet someone? I'd venture to say at least 25% of the | people hanging out in the gate areas are there to pick people up. Most international airports have separated the baggage claim from the publicly accessible terminal halls. Changi by glass walls, others (Frankfurt) by steel doors etc. There is no need for the public to be in those places! | Adding to the fact that after this alot of people are *really* | nervous about | flying, and having a friendly face there at the gate for them is | important. | In addition, this requires you to coordinate *where* you're going to meet | someone, rather than just being able to be at the gate they're | arriving at. It works internationally, so why not in the US?
| I have a feeling this one isn't going to stick. Most airports weren't | designed for this. I pick people up from O'Hare at least a few times a | month. Other than the baggage claim (which is nearly packed during busy | times) where can you meet someone? I'd venture to say at least 25% of the | people hanging out in the gate areas are there to pick people up.
Most international airports have separated the baggage claim from the publicly accessible terminal halls. Changi by glass walls, others (Frankfurt) by steel doors etc. There is no need for the public to be in those places!
| Adding to the fact that after this alot of people are *really* | nervous about | flying, and having a friendly face there at the gate for them is | important. | In addition, this requires you to coordinate *where* you're going to meet | someone, rather than just being able to be at the gate they're | arriving at.
It works internationally, so why not in the US?
Just to clarify for those who don't travel in the US frequently: US airports seem to be designed quite differently than many other places. I spend a large amount of time in O'hare, so I'll use it for an example. O'Hare is huge. Really really big. Other than the check-in counters and baggage claims *EVERYTHING ELSE* is behind the security checkin point. I'd say less than 10-15% of the space in O'hare is accessable without crossing the checkpoints, and those 10-15% comprise the checkin counters, the baggage claims, and hallways/tunnels between parking garages and terminals. There is nowhere to go to to meet passengers other than the gate area. Contrast this to the last airport I was in outside the US (Winnipeg, Canada). The gate/baggage claim area is relatively small, and all the other airport services are outside the baggage claim, as well as a *waiting area* to meet people there. US airports seem designed to have people waiting at the gates to pick people up, others have areas specially meant for this sort of thing. Changing the policy without first changing the layout of the airports is my complaint. Correct me if I'm wrong, but without crossing a security checkpoint in ORD, LAX, MSP, etc, there's virtually nowhere for non-passengers to go. I've spent more than 6 hours waiting for people at airports before, and without a place for food and/or somewhere to sit, I'd go insane. It's a design problem really. This is pretty far off topic now though, if you guys have any more questions about this sort of thing, feel free to take this off list with me. -- Kevin
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:45:29PM +0800, Mathias Körber wrote:
| I have a feeling this one isn't going to stick. Most airports weren't | designed for this. I pick people up from O'Hare at least a few times a | month. Other than the baggage claim (which is nearly packed during busy | times) where can you meet someone? I'd venture to say at least 25% of the | people hanging out in the gate areas are there to pick people up.
Most international airports have separated the baggage claim from the publicly accessible terminal halls. Changi by glass walls, others (Frankfurt) by steel doors etc. There is no need for the public to be in those places!
Unfortunately in places such as MSP (Minneapolis/St. Paul International) you enter the building, the ticket windows are the first thing you see, and everything else is beyond the metal detectors, (Food, Drink, Gift shops, and the restrooms iirc) the only airport I can recall that is setup properly for the new regulations would be Kansas City where they have metal detectors and x-ray machines at _every gate_ enclosed with glass partitions.
| Adding to the fact that after this alot of people are *really* | nervous about | flying, and having a friendly face there at the gate for them is | important. | In addition, this requires you to coordinate *where* you're going to meet | someone, rather than just being able to be at the gate they're | arriving at.
It works internationally, so why not in the US?
Because our airports have been built, and rebuilt without this in mind, as it is now you basicly walk in the front door, hit the metal detectors, then you're in the airport. Matthew S. Hallacy --
On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote:
Because our airports have been built, and rebuilt without this in mind, as it is now you basicly walk in the front door, hit the metal detectors, then you're in the airport.
And then there are the people who work at the detectors. "Turn on your cell phone so it beeps" "Turn on your pager so it beeps" What? What does that prove? If I went to all the trouble to put a weapon/bomb into a cell phone, don't you think I would go the extra mile to make it beep? I get that every time I fly out of San Diego. My best experience so far has been in Spokane, WA. We thought we were going to be late, so were hauling down the corridors, and I got stopped since I had my backpack with some of my tools in it. Very nice gentleman pulled me aside and asked if I had any weapons. "No" "Hmm, how about a Leatherman?" "Oh, yep, front zipper pocket" "OK, we just wanted to make sure." Oh, and if you happen to fit a certain 'look', you'll get pulled aside and wand searched, and all of your carryons will be searched. (I happen to have a long ponytail, and tend to wear my leather when flying to Colorado or Nebraska, I've been searched 8 times in 5 years, and I've only flown around 12). The current system needs to be overhauled, and competent people who have definitive standards to live up to need to be doing the searches. Am not sure who suggested a Federal agency be put in charge of this, but its a darn good idea. toddler
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 12:42:04AM -0600, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote:
Unfortunately in places such as MSP (Minneapolis/St. Paul International) you enter the building, the ticket windows are the first thing you see, and everything else is beyond the metal detectors, (Food, Drink, Gift shops, and the restrooms iirc) the only airport I can recall that is setup properly for the new regulations would be Kansas City where they have metal detectors and x-ray machines at _every gate_ enclosed with glass partitions.
Having flown in and out of KCI (er, MCI, er... anyway) many times, there is one additional feature - deboarding passengers leave the gate area *immediately*, behind a cordon, and after only 20 feet or so are outside that glass wall - so there is a natural arrangement to encourage people *not* to wait in the cordoned gate area for pickups. A few folks do drop offs there, and go in to wait with departures, but while this is permitted, it is actively discouraged, and most folks appear to just stand in line and wait for the checkpoint with whomever they're with, then hug and break off rather than pass the checkpoint. Oh, and because it's clear glass, you can still stand outside and "keep an eye" on folks (small children, etc), or watchin for someone deboarding. Between SJC, SFO, OAK, Las Vegas, Reno, SLC, O'Hare, Boston, Hartford, and Kansas City, the *only* airport designed at all rationally to separate the final gate travellers from those accompanying but not flying, and provide everything else reasonably, was Kansas City. Unfortunately, the price is fairly direct - you cannot get by with 3-4 "stations" of 2-3 detectors each, and manning only 1-2 of those. Each and every gate must be separated and have it's own sniffers, detectors, and security inspection. The manpower cost is increased significantly (though the gate areas are not staffed unless it is within about 1.5 hours prior to a departure from that gate). And most current airports could be retro- fitted to accomodate this, though it certainly wouldn't be easy in some of them. But if the restriction remains in place, it will probably be demanded by travellers. -- *************************************************************************** Joel Baker System Administrator - lightbearer.com lucifer@lightbearer.com http://www.lightbearer.com/~lucifer
On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:16:55AM -0600, Joel Baker wrote:
Between SJC, SFO, OAK, Las Vegas, Reno, SLC, O'Hare, Boston, Hartford, and Kansas City, the *only* airport designed at all rationally to separate the final gate travellers from those accompanying but not flying, and provide everything else reasonably, was Kansas City.
Hmm. BOS I've travelled in and out of regularly the last year or so. In Terminal E, out Terminal B. Terminal E (International) has places for people to eat/drink and sit outside the security checkpoints on the departure level (there are more options inside the checkpoints, granted). Waiting for arrivals could do with some more space, but its only a short escalator ride from the departure level, and the baggage claim area is sealed off from the public (as it should be IMHO). People seem to cope ok. Terminal B also has food and drink concessions outside the checkpoint, again... not so many choices as behind the checkpoints, and the Admiral's Club is on the secure side. -- John Payne http://sackheads.org/jpayne/ john@sackheads.org http://sackheads.org/uce/ Fax: +44 870 0547954 To send me mail, use the address in the From: header
participants (6)
-
Joel Baker -
John Payne -
Kevin Day -
Mathias K�rber -
Matthew S. Hallacy -
Todd Suiter