IPv4 and Auctions
A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with someone. Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case. No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly exhausted their previous space. How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction? Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t needed. Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another random person.
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, Matt Hoppes wrote:
A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with someone.
Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case.
No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly exhausted their previous space.
How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t needed.
Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another random person.
There are probably more qualified people who can answer this, but lots of IP space was handed out to organizations (and even to individuals) long before the RIRs like ARIN were created. Those "assignments" / "allocations" (whatever you want to call them) are outside of the control of the RIRs because they had no involvement in them. With more recent IP spaces that were first assigned/allocated by an RIR and are therefore regulated by the RIRs, I believe purchases of those IP blocks are contingent on getting RIR approval for the transfer, meaning the buyer, in addition to paying the seller, would have to justify their need to the appropriate RIR and get the RIR's blessing on the transfer. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route StackPath, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
On 24 Oct 2019, at 11:18 pm, Jon Lewis <jlewis@lewis.org> wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, Matt Hoppes wrote:
A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with someone.
Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case.
No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly exhausted their previous space.
How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t needed.
Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another random person.
There are probably more qualified people who can answer this, but lots of IP space was handed out to organizations (and even to individuals) long before the RIRs like ARIN were created. Those "assignments" / "allocations" (whatever you want to call them) are outside of the control of the RIRs because they had no involvement in them.
With more recent IP spaces that were first assigned/allocated by an RIR and are therefore regulated by the RIRs, I believe purchases of those IP blocks are contingent on getting RIR approval for the transfer, meaning the buyer, in addition to paying the seller, would have to justify their need to the appropriate RIR and get the RIR's blessing on the transfer.
And most of the pre-RIR allocations where also needs based. I know I had to justify the B and 3 C’s I got back in ’88 from SRI-NIC (pre-CIDR). Unfortunately I don’t have the paperwork anymore. You had to do projected host estimates out several years. 4 sites with one with over 254 hosts ….
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Lewis, MCP :) | I route StackPath, Sr. Neteng | therefore you are _________ http://www.lewis.org/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key_________
-- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 08:18:47 -0400 (EDT), Jon Lewis <jlewis@lewis.org> may have written:
IP space was handed out to organizations (and even to individuals) long before the RIRs like ARIN were created. Those "assignments" / "allocations" (whatever you want to call them) are outside of the control of the RIRs because they had no involvement in them.
I don't know about others but "my" SRI-NIC allocation passed to RIPE control some while back, as a "legacy" (mnt-by: RIPE-NCC-LEGACY-MNT) block. Although it was fairly easy to predict where it should go. -- Mike Meredith, University of Portsmouth Chief Systems Engineer, Hostmaster, Security, and Timelord!
On 24 Oct 2019, at 5:18 AM, Jon Lewis <jlewis@lewis.org> wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019, Matt Hoppes wrote:
A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with someone.
Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case.
Over the history of the Internet numbers registry system, there has been some requirements to be met in order to have IPv4 address space issued to you. You’d have to ask Vint Cerf, Steve Crocker, or their ilk for the earliest requirements, but I expect it was not much more than asking Jon Postel to make the registration entry in his notebook of assigned numbers. The requirements became a little more formal over time – i.e. requiring one to fill out and submitting to SRI (or their successor GSI or their successor InterNIC/NSI) a template describing the number of IP addresses that you need immediately and over 1, 2, and 5 years time. RFC 1174 documents the decision to delegate the central “Internet Registry” (IR) assignment authority to regional bodies, and you can see the formalization of the IP assignment policy in RFC 1466. In November 1996 (pre-ARIN). RFC 2050 was published containing guidelines regarding administration of the registry. The regional registries at the time were RIPE NCC, APNIC, and the InterNIC (operated by NSI), with the InterNIC’s “region” being nominally everyplace not served by RIPE NCC or APNIC. Network Solutions (NSI) performed the InterNIC function per an agreement awarded under the authority of the National Science Foundation (NSF). Note that RFC 2050 provided that one could return their unused address space or one could transfer space to someone meeting the same requirements as necessary to obtain an assignment directly from the free pool ("7. The transfer of IP addresses from one party to another must be approved by the regional registries. The party trying to obtain the IP address must meet the same criteria as if they were requesting an IP address directly from the IR.”)
No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly exhausted their previous space.
How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t needed.
Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another random person.
There are probably more qualified people who can answer this, but lots of IP space was handed out to organizations (and even to individuals) long before the RIRs like ARIN were created. Those "assignments" / "allocations" (whatever you want to call them) are outside of the control of the RIRs because they had no involvement in them.
Incorrect. There are been a sequence of entities administering the registry – you may have gotten your assignment from Jon Postel or SRI, but it was being maintained by the successor registries (GSI, NSI/InterNIC, ARIN or RIPE or LACNIC, , etc.) since that time. In the ARIN region, we refer to “legacy resource holders” as the parties (or their legal successors) who hold number resources issued to them by ARIN’s predecessors prior to ARIN’s inception in December 1997. If you obtain an address block from a legacy resource holder, you are not a legacy resource holder unless you purchased the entire company (i.e. merger/acquisition) and thus are the legal successor. The reason that ARIN provides special pricing and terms for legacy resource holders is because we respect those organizations contributions to the earliest days of the Internet, and provide a voluntary path for them to formalize their rights via the RSA agreement with favorable terms, if they so choose. Note that none of the above speaks to policy – ARIN’s policies apply to all resources in its registry, and all parties are welcome to participate, including legacy resource holders who haven’t entered any formal agreement for services with ARIN. The NSF press release issued at the time of ARIN’s formation <https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=102819> shows NSF’s approval of the transition of administration of the registry to ARIN and notes that "Creation of ARIN will give the users of IP numbers (mostly Internet service providers, corporations and other large institutions) a voice in the policies by which they are managed and allocated within the North American region.” As such, legacy resource holders are encouraged to participate in the policy development process that sets the policy used for management of the (now) ARIN registry. Legacy resource holders receive the same services that they always have - i.e. those that they were in place at ARIN’s inception, without any need for an agreement or payment of any fees. (Legacy holders that want the all ARIN services available today must enter into a RSA and pay the modest capped maintenance fees which help support development of same.) ARIN has direct control over the registry including all of the entries therein, and this means that when the community adopts a policy, it is indeed applied to all entries regardless of their time of issuance. Since the ARIN community has developed and adopted more relaxed policies for transfers (allowing them to entities who can meet more modest needs requirements), all of the resources in the ARIN registry are operated under those updated policies rather than the more stringent policy that was in place via RFC 2050 prior to ARIN’s formation. This has, among other things, enabled the development of a robust transfer marketplace for unused IPv4 resources in the region, thus creating incentive for unused blocks to be brought back into productive use within the community and providing some small mitigation for those who require additional IPv4 address space at a time when there is very little available for free assignment from the registry system. Note finally that there is no policy at ARIN regarding “leasing” of IP addresses (in many ways, that's precisely what an ISP does with IP addresses for its customers, only usually bundled as an element in the overall service), so one should not be surprised when leasing occurs in the ARIN region. Best wishes - I hope the above helps clarify things - if not, one can find me in Austin for more specific questions. :-) /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers
On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 7:08 AM Matt Hoppes < mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with someone.
Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case.
No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly exhausted their previous space.
A lot of entities received very large allocations prior to depletion being a concern. A lot of entities received very large allocations prior to NAT even being a thing. Back in the late 90s/early 00s, lots of very large scale projects were going on in very large organizations to get away from every desktop, PC, and printer having a world-routable IPv4 address. Interestingly, that came with a shift in mentality away from having firewalls at various borders - a mentality we really need to resurrect on a lot of networks as IPv6 takes off. How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like
Hilco that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t needed.
Why would you return an asset that has value when you could sell it instead? I mean, look, I'm all for charity, but this is hardly feeding any orphans or curing any diseases or sending any talented low income kids to NANOG. Besides the fact that from the standpoint of the RIR, processing transfers is less hassle than processing a return and then keeping wait lists going indefinitely. Better to shift focus to IPv6 as far as allocating space goes, and let folks like Hilco worry about lining up buyers and sellers for IPv4 space. Remember, Hilco makes more profit on facilitating those transactions than an RIR most likely would with their fee structures that are designed to keep them functioning efficiently, not to keep them engaged in cumbersome legacy businesses. Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you
from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another random person.
Legally speaking, the RSA with ARIN is not particularly similar to most rental housing contracts. Besides that, many apartment leases do allow sub-letting or transferring the lease, as well. Take care, Matt
I agree that why would you return something that has value that you can sell, but isn’t there the requirement that you have a justification for the IP addresses when you got them from ARIN? And if you can now sell them and in some cases sell large blocks of them, either someone lied to a RIN to get them and you didn’t actually need them, or you’ve been holding onto them and you don’t actually have a justification for them. You don’t suddenly just not need a/8 or suddenly not need a/21.
On Oct 24, 2019, at 9:02 AM, Matt Harris <matt@netfire.net> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 7:08 AM Matt Hoppes <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:
A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with someone.
Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case.
No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly exhausted their previous space.
A lot of entities received very large allocations prior to depletion being a concern. A lot of entities received very large allocations prior to NAT even being a thing. Back in the late 90s/early 00s, lots of very large scale projects were going on in very large organizations to get away from every desktop, PC, and printer having a world-routable IPv4 address.
Interestingly, that came with a shift in mentality away from having firewalls at various borders - a mentality we really need to resurrect on a lot of networks as IPv6 takes off.
How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t needed.
Why would you return an asset that has value when you could sell it instead? I mean, look, I'm all for charity, but this is hardly feeding any orphans or curing any diseases or sending any talented low income kids to NANOG.
Besides the fact that from the standpoint of the RIR, processing transfers is less hassle than processing a return and then keeping wait lists going indefinitely. Better to shift focus to IPv6 as far as allocating space goes, and let folks like Hilco worry about lining up buyers and sellers for IPv4 space. Remember, Hilco makes more profit on facilitating those transactions than an RIR most likely would with their fee structures that are designed to keep them functioning efficiently, not to keep them engaged in cumbersome legacy businesses.
Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another random person.
Legally speaking, the RSA with ARIN is not particularly similar to most rental housing contracts.
Besides that, many apartment leases do allow sub-letting or transferring the lease, as well.
Take care, Matt
Once upon a time, Matt Hoppes <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> said:
You don’t suddenly just not need a/8 or suddenly not need a/21.
You don't "suddenly just" do lots of things, because things change over time; no need to attribute malicious intent. For example, a former employer had a /17, a /18, and a /19 at one point (and even that was kind of tight). The business has changed though, and now they have a /23 and two /24s, and sold the rest. -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
On 10/24/19 9:25 AM, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matt Hoppes <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> said:
You don’t suddenly just not need a/8 or suddenly not need a/21.
You don't "suddenly just" do lots of things, because things change over time; no need to attribute malicious intent. For example, a former employer had a /17, a /18, and a /19 at one point (and even that was kind of tight). The business has changed though, and now they have a /23 and two /24s, and sold the rest.
I get that -- but if you don't need a /18, don't the ARIN rules require they be returned?
On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 09:30:20AM -0400, Matt Hoppes wrote:
On 10/24/19 9:25 AM, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matt Hoppes <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net> said:
You don’t suddenly just not need a/8 or suddenly not need a/21.
You don't "suddenly just" do lots of things, because things change over time; no need to attribute malicious intent. For example, a former employer had a /17, a /18, and a /19 at one point (and even that was kind of tight). The business has changed though, and now they have a /23 and two /24s, and sold the rest.
I get that -- but if you don't need a /18, don't the ARIN rules require they be returned?
Well, there's need, and then there's "need". If you've sprayed your organisation's IP addresses all across your /18, then you "need" that whole /18, and you're going to have to undertake a whole renumbering fiesta to change that, which is going to be costly both in direct labour costs, as well as disruption to services. Since there's no requirement for all the addresses to be publicly reachable, there's no way for anyone outside of your organisation to tell that only one /24 in each /21 is actually being used, and even then each /24 only has 4-5 hosts in it. Thus, nobody at ARIN (or anywhere else) is going to come beating down your door to demand you give back that big block you're only sparsely using. Now, imagine that suddenly you can get Real Money for the unused addresses. It might, at some point, turn out to make financial sense to spend the money to renumber into a smaller block and get phat sacks of mad cheddar for the addresses you can free up. If you want to take a charitable look at it, the money that organisations get for "selling" their unused space can be seen rather as compensation for undertaking the work necessary to free up that space. The invisible hand of the market at work! You can also, of course, see it as pointless busy-work that would have been better spent just rolling out IPv6 and being done with it. Your mileage, as the sticker says, may vary. - Matt
There's a fairly famous animal behavior experiment where rats are allowed to multiply in a room-sized cage without control, food and water and basic sanitation are provided. When the cage becomes extremely crowded rats are observed gnawing on each other's tails. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
Are any of the rats using routable IP addresses? On Fri, Oct 25, 2019 at 10:11 AM <bzs@theworld.com> wrote:
There's a fairly famous animal behavior experiment where rats are allowed to multiply in a room-sized cage without control, food and water and basic sanitation are provided.
When the cage becomes extremely crowded rats are observed gnawing on each other's tails.
-- -Barry Shein
Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*
There's a fairly famous animal behavior experiment where rats are allowed to multiply in a room-sized cage without control, food and water and basic sanitation are provided.
When the cage becomes extremely crowded rats are observed gnawing on each other's tails.
Are any of the rats using routable IP addresses?
yes, but ipv6 only; which is why we can't see them from the internet
Since you mentioned Hilco specifically. . . IPv4.Global is the IPv4 address brokerage operated by Hilco Streambank. We match organizations who have more IPv4 address space than they need with organizations who need more IPv4 address space than they have. This is consistent with ARIN's Number Resource Policy Manual sections 8.3. and 8.4 https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/nrpm/#8-3-transfers-between-specifie... I was on the ARIN Board when we approved this policy in 2008. The compelling argument to me was that this market would improve overall utilization of address space, and would be more efficient than ARIN trying to reclaim unused or lightly used address blocks. There are a lot of cases where pre-RIR, the justification was minimal, and organizational needs may change over the intervening 20-40 years. Part of the interest, to me, was that many organizations who had received their allocations prior to ARIN's existence did not recognize ARIN's authority to reclaim their space. Even if ARIN prevailed in court, it would have been costly. Not only that, but there's no minimum utilization requirement to keep addresses. You must show 50-80% utilization to get more, but what if you aren't asking for more? Would ARIN reclaim a block that was only 45% used? 25%? 1%? In each of the more than 1500 transfers IPv4.Global has handled, the recipient has had to satisfy their need under the rules of the RIR in which they operate. ARIN's policies are established by community consensus. ARIN's Public Policy Mailing List (ppml) is open, and there's a designated open microphone time at the end of the meeting next Thursday. If you won't be there in person, remote participation is pretty good. I'm always happy to talk about this, either one on one, or if there are other folks at NANOG/ARIN next week who want to get together to chat, I'd be happy to facilitate. Lee On 10/24/19 8:08 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
A thought crossed my mind the other day as I was having a discussion with someone.
Every entity is suppose to justify their need for IPv4 address space from ARIN. This was always (in recent history) the case.
No entity is suppose to be given more IPv4 space until they have nearly exhausted their previous space.
How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
Supposedly we are completely out of IPv4 space, yet every day large blocks are being sold for money, yet they were never returned because they weren’t needed.
Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another random person.
Matt Hoppes wrote : How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
Because now it's worth real money, while earlier it was better to hoard it, just in case.
Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another random person.
The difference is that ARIN charges almost nothing for the rent, so what you basically are auctioning is the right too use a free appartment, which is worth money. Even if you don't own the IP addresses, the right to use them is a tangible asset.
I get that -- but if you don't need a /18, don't the ARIN rules require they be returned?
There are 3 reasons why it does not happen : 1. ARIN does not measure how much a block is utilized. The block does not even have to be announced on the Internet. How does ARIN know how much of 30/8 is in use ? 2. Even if they did, there is utilization and there there is "utilization". If an ISP has a produt that gives a /28 to each business aDSL, it is justifiable. Now we all know that all that 99% of business aDSL cares about is ONE static IP, but giving them a /28 is a good method to request large blocks of IPs just in case they are needed later. 3. Why should one spend time returning free ressources that may be of some use later ?
Lee Howard wrote : IPv4.Global is the IPv4 address brokerage operated by Hilco Streambank.
What I like with Hilco is that it brings transparency to the market. I think that each transfer should list the amount of the transaction between parties. For example, I would like to know for how much 44.192/10 went. Michel. TSI Disclaimer: This message and any files or text attached to it are intended only for the recipients named above and contain information that may be confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not forward, copy, use or otherwise disclose this communication or the information contained herein. In the event you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, and then delete all copies of it from your system. Thank you!...
Speaking strictly on my own behalf and not in any way representing any official opinion or position of ARIN or the AC…
On Oct 24, 2019, at 17:29 , Michel Py <michel.py@tsisemi.com> wrote:
Matt Hoppes wrote : How is it, then, that we daily for the last 2-3 years have places like Hilco that have sometimes 15-20 large IPv4 blocks up for auction?
Because now it's worth real money, while earlier it was better to hoard it, just in case.
Another thought: being that IPv4 address space is essentially leased to you from ARIN, can you even legally auction your space to someone else? I know it’s happening, but it would almost be like me auctioning my apartment to another random person.
The difference is that ARIN charges almost nothing for the rent, so what you basically are auctioning is the right too use a free appartment, which is worth money. Even if you don't own the IP addresses, the right to use them is a tangible asset.
I’m sure someone from ARIN staff will correct me if I’m wrong about this, but I don’t believe that is the case. ARIN registration is NOT (to the best of my knowledge): + A right to use + A property right in a set of integers + Any sort of right to have your numbers routed on the internet (or anywhere) + Any sort of exclusive right to control of a set of integers for a particular purpose ARIN registration is (to the best of my knowledge): + A guarantee of unique association of a set of integers to your organization within a cooperating set of databases collectively known as the RIR System. + A guarantee of certain property and control rights over said registration within that system. (note that’s the registration, not the registered integers) + Unless you are a non-RSA legacy registrant, it is a contractual relationship between you and ARIN (and by extension said RIR system) which provides both rights and obligations on your conduct with respect to said registration. + The right and ability to update certain attributes in the records of your registration(s). So ARIN doesn’t actually rent the right to use an apartment so much as a recording of the fact that certain entities agree that your name goes on the door of said apartment. Now, coincidentally and fortunately, the vast majority of ISPs choose to regard the data in the RIR system as an important record of who they will accept prefix advertisements from, which makes it much harder to use numbers that are not associated with your organization in the RIR system for routing on the internet, but that’s actually a coincidental behavior of the ISPs and not actually any sort of right, privilege, or ability issued or managed by ARIN.
I get that -- but if you don't need a /18, don't the ARIN rules require they be returned?
There are 3 reasons why it does not happen :
1. ARIN does not measure how much a block is utilized. The block does not even have to be announced on the Internet. How does ARIN know how much of 30/8 is in use ?
ARIN could measure this by pursuing an audit under section 12 of the NRPM.
2. Even if they did, there is utilization and there there is "utilization". If an ISP has a produt that gives a /28 to each business aDSL, it is justifiable. Now we all know that all that 99% of business aDSL cares about is ONE static IP, but giving them a /28 is a good method to request large blocks of IPs just in case they are needed later.
It’s not entirely clear whether this practice is truly within ARIN policy or not. On a theoretical level, ARIN could ask said ISP to show that it’s customers are efficiently utilizing those /28s. On a practical level, a /28 is small enough that it takes a lot of customers to add up to anything I would call a “large block”.
3. Why should one spend time returning free ressources that may be of some use later ?
In the past, many of us did so simply because it was the right thing to do and good neighborly behavior. I realize that in the modern world and the current state of IPv4, such an attitude seems quaint, even naive, but there were kinder gentler times on the internet when this was more of a behavioral norm.
Lee Howard wrote : IPv4.Global is the IPv4 address brokerage operated by Hilco Streambank.
What I like with Hilco is that it brings transparency to the market. I think that each transfer should list the amount of the transaction between parties. For example, I would like to know for how much 44.192/10 went.
If you really feel that this should be data the RIRs collect during transfers and that it should be published, I suggest you submit a proposal for this into the ARIN policy development process. If you need help doing so, feel free to ask me or any other member of the AC. Owen
Hi Owen,
Owen DeLong wrote : So ARIN doesn’t actually rent the right to use an apartment so much as a recording of the fact that certain entities agree that your name goes on the door of said apartment.
Correct, but in the end I still have the apartment for very cheap, good enough for me. If a squatter tries to use it, good chances are that community efforts, not ARIN because ARIN is not the police, will lead to me retaining the use of it.
Michel Py wrote : What I like with Hilco is that it brings transparency to the market. I think that each transfer should list the amount of the transaction between parties. For example, I would like to know for how much 44.192/10 went.
Owen DeLong wrote : If you really feel that this should be data the RIRs collect during transfers and that it should be published, I suggest you submit a proposal for this into the ARIN policy development process. If you need help doing so, feel free to ask me or any other member of the AC.
I think the result should be simple, a .csv file containing an entry for each prefix transferred : Date, size, price, origin RIR, resulting RIR. Something like https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales but covering all transactions, not only ipv4.global ones. Transparency on transfer prices. What do you think about it ? a two-prong question : - As yourself ? is it desirable for the community in your opinion ? - As AC member ? Does it have any chance to be approved by the AC ? I would submit a proposal if it has some chances to pass; I don't want to lose the time of the AC if it's going to be deep-sixed right away. Side question more towards John or the ARIN staff, how much work is that going to be to implement ? Michel. TSI Disclaimer: This message and any files or text attached to it are intended only for the recipients named above and contain information that may be confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not forward, copy, use or otherwise disclose this communication or the information contained herein. In the event you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, and then delete all copies of it from your system. Thank you!...
On Oct 27, 2019, at 09:47 , Michel Py <michel.py@tsisemi.com> wrote:
Hi Owen,
Owen DeLong wrote : So ARIN doesn’t actually rent the right to use an apartment so much as a recording of the fact that certain entities agree that your name goes on the door of said apartment.
Correct, but in the end I still have the apartment for very cheap, good enough for me. If a squatter tries to use it, good chances are that community efforts, not ARIN because ARIN is not the police, will lead to me retaining the use of it.
Michel Py wrote : What I like with Hilco is that it brings transparency to the market. I think that each transfer should list the amount of the transaction between parties. For example, I would like to know for how much 44.192/10 went.
Owen DeLong wrote : If you really feel that this should be data the RIRs collect during transfers and that it should be published, I suggest you submit a proposal for this into the ARIN policy development process. If you need help doing so, feel free to ask me or any other member of the AC.
I think the result should be simple, a .csv file containing an entry for each prefix transferred : Date, size, price, origin RIR, resulting RIR. Something like https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales but covering all transactions, not only ipv4.global ones. Transparency on transfer prices.
What do you think about it ? a two-prong question :
I’m not super enthusiastic about it one way or the other, to be honest. I wouldn’t oppose a policy favoring market transparency, but I doubt it will achieve significant support from the rest of the community and I’m sure there will be vocal opposition.
- As yourself ? is it desirable for the community in your opinion ?
I think it could offer some benefit to the community. OTOH, I can also understand why some entities prefer to keep their financial data private. I’m honestly somewhat ambivalent about where the balance should be struck here between privacy and transparency.
- As AC member ? Does it have any chance to be approved by the AC ?
That’s not really a valid question, IMHO. I think anything which garners significant support in the community has a chance to be approved by the AC. We are representatives of the community. I can’t speak for other AC members, but I will say that I do sometimes find myself voting on the AC in a manner that does not reflect my personal views because I have seen clear indication from the community that the will of the community differs from my personal opinion.
I would submit a proposal if it has some chances to pass; I don't want to lose the time of the AC if it's going to be deep-sixed right away.
The only way a proposal gets deep-sixed by the AC right away is if it is out of scope or has an unclear problem statement. After that, the AC only abandons proposals that have received significant opposition from the community and which the AC does not believe have will ever reach consensus within the community.
Side question more towards John or the ARIN staff, how much work is that going to be to implement ?
Some questions likely necessary for John or staff to answer: Which classes of transfers would you apply this to? 8.2 (M&A)? 8.3 (Specified Transfers within the ARIN region) 8.4 (Inter-RIR transfers to/from ARIN) Inbound only? Outbound only? Both? What about 8.4 transfers where the party not in the ARIN region insists on a confidentiality agreement about pricing? How far do you want to extend the ARIN policy into affecting the behavior of suppliers and/or recipients in other regions? Owen
Michel.
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On 10/27/19 12:47 PM, Michel Py wrote:
Michel Py wrote : What I like with Hilco is that it brings transparency to the market. I think that each transfer should list the amount of the transaction between parties. For example, I would like to know for how much 44.192/10 went.
The parties to transactions probably protect that data in the same way they protect how much they paid for their routers, software licenses, and payroll.
Owen DeLong wrote : If you really feel that this should be data the RIRs collect during transfers and that it should be published, I suggest you submit a proposal for this into the ARIN policy development process. If you need help doing so, feel free to ask me or any other member of the AC. I think the result should be simple, a .csv file containing an entry for each prefix transferred : Date, size, price, origin RIR, resulting RIR. Something like https://auctions.ipv4.global/prior-sales but covering all transactions, not only ipv4.global ones. Transparency on transfer prices.
Other than price, each of the RIRs publishes all of that information in a daily transfers report. Maybe JSON instead of CSV, and they don't all use the same dictionary, but it's public. Anyone can list blocks on auctions.ipv4.global, and the transaction will be included in our prior-sales report. Even private transactions can be run through the site, with the side benefit of including the transaction in that report. Some brokers use the platform when they have a buyer who needs space and they don't have the right block, or they have a seller and want broader reach. If other brokers, buyers, or sellers were interested in publishing their transaction data, we'd happily do it.
What do you think about it ? a two-prong question :
- As yourself ? is it desirable for the community in your opinion ?
- As AC member ? Does it have any chance to be approved by the AC ?
I would submit a proposal if it has some chances to pass; I don't want to lose the time of the AC if it's going to be deep-sixed right away.
This Thursday afternoon, at the end of the ARIN public policy meeting, is open mic time. If you want to float an idea to get the community's first impression, that's a pretty good time. Lee
On 26 Oct 2019, at 8:28 AM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com<mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote: … The difference is that ARIN charges almost nothing for the rent, so what you basically are auctioning is the right too use a free appartment, which is worth money. Even if you don't own the IP addresses, the right to use them is a tangible asset. I’m sure someone from ARIN staff will correct me if I’m wrong about this, but I don’t believe that is the case. ARIN registration is NOT (to the best of my knowledge): + A right to use + A property right in a set of integers + Any sort of right to have your numbers routed on the internet (or anywhere) + Any sort of exclusive right to control of a set of integers for a particular purpose ARIN registration is (to the best of my knowledge): + A guarantee of unique association of a set of integers to your organization within a cooperating set of databases collectively known as the RIR System. + A guarantee of certain property and control rights over said registration within that system. (note that’s the registration, not the registered integers) + Unless you are a non-RSA legacy registrant, it is a contractual relationship between you and ARIN (and by extension said RIR system) which provides both rights and obligations on your conduct with respect to said registration. + The right and ability to update certain attributes in the records of your registration(s). So ARIN doesn’t actually rent the right to use an apartment so much as a recording of the fact that certain entities agree that your name goes on the door of said apartment. Owen - Actually, that’s quite close. To be clear on this, I’ll point out that ARIN recognizes that those issued IP address blocks have several specific rights – • The exclusive right to be the registrant of the resources within the ARIN database • The right to use the number resources _within the ARIN database_ • The right to transfer the number resources pursuant to the community’s policies. These rights are provided contractually to all parties with ARIN-issued resources, and ARIN will recognize and formalize the rights of those issued resources by ARIN’s predecessors (legacy resource holders) by entering into a registration services agreement with them if wish clear contractual rights over their resources. Note that these rights cannot be assigned or transferred without ARIN’s consent and such consent may not be unreasonably withheld if consistent with the policies. So, if by “the right to use them”, one is referring to being the one listed in the ARIN database for the address space and/or use ARIN services applicable to those address blocks, then that is indeed a contractual right, but it doesn’t get transferred or assigned except as the community policy states. For example, redelegation by ISPs is clearly covered by ARIN policy, so we recognize such and even provide services specifically to support same. If “the right to use them” is rather a reference to ability to route address blocks with your various ISP partners, then that’s really a question about the business practices of those accepting the routes… Now, coincidentally and fortunately, the vast majority of ISPs choose to regard the data in the RIR system as an important record of who they will accept prefix advertisements from, which makes it much harder to use numbers that are not associated with your organization in the RIR system for routing on the internet, but that’s actually a coincidental behavior of the ISPs and not actually any sort of right, privilege, or ability issued or managed by ARIN. Correct. ARIN’s policies govern the administration of the number resources in the registry, and there is no requirement for resource holders to route their networks in any particular manner. During the Anti-hijack policy discussion on arin-ppml@arin.net<mailto:arin-ppml@arin.net>, I noted that if the community really wanted ARIN to require certain routing hygiene, that would require changing the RSA, and any changes to ARIN’s RSA going forward (outside of conformance to changing law) actually requires a member ratification vote… (a particularly high hurdle, but potentially achievable if the community really feels that they want additional obligations in this regard.) Thanks, /John John Curran President and CEO American Registry for Internet Numbers
John Curran wrote : So, if by “the right to use them”, one is referring to being the one listed in the ARIN database for the address space and/or use ARIN services applicable to those address blocks, then that is indeed a contractual right, but it doesn’t get transferred or assigned except as the community policy states. For example, redelegation by ISPs is clearly covered by ARIN policy, so we recognize such and even provide services specifically to support same.
I wish to retract what I wrote earlier : I totally acknowledge and support ARIN's phrasing, and it was absolutely not meant as a challenge. ARIN does not lease me the IP block I thought I "bought" on the transfer market. What I "bought" is, by the result of a complex by-product iterations of ARIN acknowledgement that although I neither own or rent the apartment, my name is on it, I somehow expect that the community will somehow consider that my org is the one who should announce the prefix allocated / assigned to said org, and not someone else. Is this appropriate langage ? I am going to move the thread of transparency to arin-ppml, where it belongs. Michel. TSI Disclaimer: This message and any files or text attached to it are intended only for the recipients named above and contain information that may be confidential or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not forward, copy, use or otherwise disclose this communication or the information contained herein. In the event you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, and then delete all copies of it from your system. Thank you!...
participants (14)
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bzs＠theworld.com -
Chris Adams -
John Curran -
Jon Lewis -
Lee Howard -
Mark Andrews -
Matt Harris -
Matt Hoppes -
Matt Palmer -
Matthew Kaufman -
Michel Py -
Mike Meredith -
Owen DeLong -
Randy Bush