Sure -- Sounds good. -- Babak Pasdar | President & CEO | Certified Ethical Hacker | Bat Blue Networks (p) 212.461.3322 x3005 | (w) BatBlue.com | (t) @bpasdar : @batblue Learn About Cloud Security: Cloud Security Video | Cloud Network Video Bat Blue is The Official Provider for ESPN X Games _____ From: nanog-request@nanog.org To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 15:13:50 -0500 Subject: NANOG Digest, Vol 55, Issue 68 Send NANOG mailing list submissions to nanog@nanog.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nanog-request@nanog.org You can reach the person managing the list at nanog-owner@nanog.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of NANOG digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Fair Use Policy (Shahab Vahabzadeh) 2. Re: Copyright infringement notice (Owen DeLong) 3. Re: Fair Use Policy (Shahab Vahabzadeh) 4. RE: Copyright infringement notice (Naslund, Steve) 5. Re: Fair Use Policy (Shahab Vahabzadeh) 6. Re: Copyright infringement notice (Robert Bonomi) 7. Re: Fair Use Policy (Shahab Vahabzadeh) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:10:34 +0430 From: Shahab Vahabzadeh <sh.vahabzadeh@gmail.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Fair Use Policy Message-ID: <CAGqGmqb54GQL-yh4nwB8fsbTO6B+P4OVgUZxbqxSbcyDnAAHsQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hello Everybody, Has any body any good and easy setup idea for "Fair Use Policy" service for my xdsl customers?! Can do this in the BRAS side and nothing done with accounting and radius? Thanks -- Regards, Shahab Vahabzadeh, Network Engineer and System Administrator Cell Phone: +1 (415) 871 0742 PGP Key Fingerprint = 8E34 B335 D702 0CA7 5A81 C2EE 76A2 46C2 5367 BF90 ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:42:31 -0700 From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> To: "Anne P. Mitchell, Esq." <amitchell@isipp.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement notice Message-ID: <6B54F6B0-94CD-47C9-B255-CC678F247E45@delong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Of all the legal advice I've seen posted to NANOG, I think this might be the first time it's come from a lawyer. Great post, Anne. Thanks for the advice. Owen On Aug 22, 2012, at 11:17 , "Anne P. Mitchell, Esq." <amitchell@isipp.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 6:16 AM, groupstudytac groupstudytac <groupstudytac@gmail.com> wrote:
I get copyright notices from companies like Irdeto , saying that one of my customers IP is downloading unauthorized material using bittorent. I also have processes in place to handle such notices .
Can anyone share how he handles such notices in his ISP environment , i am ready to adapt some valid steps to improve the existing process.
Or should i just ignore such messages ?
If you're in the U.S., the process for handling these notices is prescribed by law, specifically the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (search: DMCA takedown notice). It details what the infringement notice must include in order to be actionable and what steps the ISP must take on receipt of an actionable notice. It also prescribes procedures for the alleged infringer to object and for the ISP to restore the material following an objection.
Follow the procedures described in the law to retain your immunity as an ISP. Consult a local lawyer if you don't find them sufficiently obvious.
The thing that muddies this is that, as I understand it, the notice was not for takedown (i.e. there is not an allegation that they are *hosting* infringing material) - it is a notice that one of their users *downloaded* copyrighted material (IP, do I have that right?)
This is part of the RIAA's "graduated response" program, to which several major ISPs, including AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast, have agreed.
Basically, the accuser contacts the ISP, and the ISP sends a warning (a "copyright alert") to their user (without giving up the user to the accuser).
If the same user is accused subsequently, they get another, sterner warning. In total there is a series of six warnings, with "mitigation measures" accompanying the fifth and sixth warning.
If I were counseling an ISP - whether one that was part of the agreement, or not - I would say that the first order is to *put your policy around copyright alerts in writing* - asap - and make it as specific as possible - and then *ALWAYS FOLLOW IT EVERY SINGLE TIME*.
It almost (I say almost) doesn't matter what the policy is so long as it's reasonable, but it matters that it be followed to the letter every time, no exceptions.
And, if you are an ISP that isn't part of the agreement with the RIAA, it's still not a bad idea to structure your policy to follow the six "copyright alert" structure, because there is some precedent there, and then you come off looking like you are trying to do the right thing, which will make you a less easy target.
These two articles give a pretty good explanation of the deal:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/03/graduated-response-deal-steamrollers-t...
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/07/major-isps-agree-to-six-strikes-c...
Anne
Anne P. Mitchell, Esq CEO/President Institute for Social Internet Public Policy http://www.ISIPP.com Member, Cal. Bar Cyberspace Law Committee ISIPP Email Accreditation: http://www.SuretyMail.com
------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:27:20 +0430 From: Shahab Vahabzadeh <sh.vahabzadeh@gmail.com> To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Fair Use Policy Message-ID: <CAGqGmqZsMHn6Ua+Y-EWyrScYxXc_o5sKd5TVZdkz-Ni6GKkNLQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear Owen, As you know in pick time of internet usage like midnight in which we have free-access times too, some users which really want to use internet for their daily usage and not downloading or using peer-to-peer services unfairly affecting this problem. Some companies are using some polices for users to solve this problem. Do you have any Idea? Thanks On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
I think the first step would be to define what you mean by fair use.
Are you talking in the DMCA sense of the term, the legal sense of the term as applies to IP in other areas, or something else?
Owen
On Aug 22, 2012, at 11:40 , Shahab Vahabzadeh <sh.vahabzadeh@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everybody, Has any body any good and easy setup idea for "Fair Use Policy" service for my xdsl customers?! Can do this in the BRAS side and nothing done with accounting and radius? Thanks
-- Regards, Shahab Vahabzadeh, Network Engineer and System Administrator
Cell Phone: +1 (415) 871 0742 PGP Key Fingerprint = 8E34 B335 D702 0CA7 5A81 C2EE 76A2 46C2 5367 BF90
-- Regards, Shahab Vahabzadeh, Network Engineer and System Administrator Cell Phone: +1 (415) 871 0742 PGP Key Fingerprint = 8E34 B335 D702 0CA7 5A81 C2EE 76A2 46C2 5367 BF90 ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:04:19 -0500 From: "Naslund, Steve" <SNaslund@medline.com> To: <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: RE: Copyright infringement notice Message-ID: <2A76E400AC84B845AAC35AA19F8E7A5D0BE84281@MUNEXBE1.medline.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Now you did it Anne, prepare for the deluge of advice requests :) Seriously though, thanks for chiming in on this. Steven Naslund -----Original Message----- From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen@delong.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 1:43 PM To: Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement notice Of all the legal advice I've seen posted to NANOG, I think this might be the first time it's come from a lawyer. Great post, Anne. Thanks for the advice. Owen On Aug 22, 2012, at 11:17 , "Anne P. Mitchell, Esq." <amitchell@isipp.com> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 6:16 AM, groupstudytac groupstudytac <groupstudytac@gmail.com> wrote:
I get copyright notices from companies like Irdeto , saying that one
of my customers IP is downloading unauthorized material using bittorent. I also have processes in place to handle such notices .
Can anyone share how he handles such notices in his ISP environment , i am ready to adapt some valid steps to improve the existing
process.
Or should i just ignore such messages ?
If you're in the U.S., the process for handling these notices is prescribed by law, specifically the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (search: DMCA takedown notice). It details what the infringement notice must include in order to be actionable and what steps the ISP must take on receipt of an actionable notice. It also prescribes procedures for the alleged infringer to object and for the ISP to restore the material following an objection.
Follow the procedures described in the law to retain your immunity as
an ISP. Consult a local lawyer if you don't find them sufficiently obvious.
The thing that muddies this is that, as I understand it, the notice was not for takedown (i.e. there is not an allegation that they are *hosting* infringing material) - it is a notice that one of their users *downloaded* copyrighted material (IP, do I have that right?)
This is part of the RIAA's "graduated response" program, to which several major ISPs, including AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast, have agreed.
Basically, the accuser contacts the ISP, and the ISP sends a warning (a "copyright alert") to their user (without giving up the user to the accuser).
If the same user is accused subsequently, they get another, sterner warning. In total there is a series of six warnings, with "mitigation measures" accompanying the fifth and sixth warning.
If I were counseling an ISP - whether one that was part of the agreement, or not - I would say that the first order is to *put your policy around copyright alerts in writing* - asap - and make it as specific as possible - and then *ALWAYS FOLLOW IT EVERY SINGLE TIME*.
It almost (I say almost) doesn't matter what the policy is so long as
it's reasonable, but it matters that it be followed to the letter every time, no exceptions.
And, if you are an ISP that isn't part of the agreement with the RIAA,
it's still not a bad idea to structure your policy to follow the six "copyright alert" structure, because there is some precedent there, and then you come off looking like you are trying to do the right thing, which will make you a less easy target.
These two articles give a pretty good explanation of the deal:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/03/graduated-response-deal-steamrol lers-towards-july-1-launch
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/07/major-isps-agree-to-six-str ikes-copyright-enforcement-plan/
Anne
Anne P. Mitchell, Esq CEO/President Institute for Social Internet Public Policy http://www.ISIPP.com Member, Cal. Bar Cyberspace Law Committee ISIPP Email Accreditation: http://www.SuretyMail.com
------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:36:40 +0430 From: Shahab Vahabzadeh <sh.vahabzadeh@gmail.com> To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Fair Use Policy Message-ID: <CAGqGmqZAnoD=xf+9GR0wyQECH65VQv39X1CX56Kqv5WvB5HTcw@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What I am talking mostly is some services like COA, in which you can change users shape time-base and periodically without disconnecting them. On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
If you want to control usage that way, sell a metered product. Bill the heavy users more for their usage.
Otherwise, price your services such that you can build adequate upstream capacity to serve your users.
I'm not a fan of using "rateshaping" (which is what you are describing) to cover for inadequate facilities.
Owen
On Aug 22, 2012, at 11:57 , Shahab Vahabzadeh <sh.vahabzadeh@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Owen, As you know in pick time of internet usage like midnight in which we have free-access times too, some users which really want to use internet for their daily usage and not downloading or using peer-to-peer services unfairly affecting this problem. Some companies are using some polices for users to solve this problem. Do you have any Idea? Thanks
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
I think the first step would be to define what you mean by fair use.
Are you talking in the DMCA sense of the term, the legal sense of the term as applies to IP in other areas, or something else?
Owen
On Aug 22, 2012, at 11:40 , Shahab Vahabzadeh <sh.vahabzadeh@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everybody, Has any body any good and easy setup idea for "Fair Use Policy" service for my xdsl customers?! Can do this in the BRAS side and nothing done with accounting and radius? Thanks
-- Regards, Shahab Vahabzadeh, Network Engineer and System Administrator
Cell Phone: +1 (415) 871 0742 PGP Key Fingerprint = 8E34 B335 D702 0CA7 5A81 C2EE 76A2 46C2 5367 BF90
-- Regards, Shahab Vahabzadeh, Network Engineer and System Administrator
Cell Phone: +1 (415) 871 0742 PGP Key Fingerprint = 8E34 B335 D702 0CA7 5A81 C2EE 76A2 46C2 5367 BF90
-- Regards, Shahab Vahabzadeh, Network Engineer and System Administrator Cell Phone: +1 (415) 871 0742 PGP Key Fingerprint = 8E34 B335 D702 0CA7 5A81 C2EE 76A2 46C2 5367 BF90 ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 14:07:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Robert Bonomi <bonomi@mail.r-bonomi.com> To: bill@herrin.us, groupstudytac@gmail.com Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Copyright infringement notice Message-ID: <201208221907.q7MJ7huc063499@mail.r-bonomi.com>
From nanog-bounces+bonomi=mail.r-bonomi.com@nanog.org Wed Aug 22 10:54:49 2012 From: William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 11:54:00 -0400 Subject: Re: Copyright infringement notice To: groupstudytac groupstudytac <groupstudytac@gmail.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 6:16 AM, groupstudytac groupstudytac <groupstudytac@gmail.com> wrote:
I get copyright notices from companies like Irdeto , saying that one of my customers IP is downloading unauthorized material using bittorent. I also have processes in place to handle such notices .
Can anyone share how he handles such notices in his ISP environment , i am ready to adapt some valid steps to improve the existing process.
Or should i just ignore such messages ?
If you're in the U.S., the process for handling these notices is prescribed by law, specifically the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (search: DMCA takedown notice). It details what the infringement notice must include in order to be actionable and what steps the ISP must take on receipt of an actionable notice. It also prescribes procedures for the alleged infringer to object and for the ISP to restore the material following an objection.
Follow the procedures described in the law to retain your immunity as an ISP. Consult a local lawyer if you don't find them sufficiently obvious.
Note: the DMCA, and 'takedown notices' associated therewith apply to contet that an ISP customer is 'publishing' by public display on the Internet. The OP is getting notices that someone with an IP address in a netblock 'belonging' to the ISP he operates is _downloading_ content that 'someone else' [more than one such entity, in all probability, given that it's bittorrent, and presumably exteral to the OP's netblock(s)] is doing the 'publishing' addressed by the DMCA, and the 'safe harbor' provisions for ISPs. I'm NOT SURE whether the ISP has any potential liability in _this_ situation -- there's nothing 'published' by their customer for them to 'take down', etc. However, the *only* reasonable/rational recommedation that can be made to the OP is "consult competent professional legal counsel in *your* jurisdiction." It is virtully a requirement to do this on a "paid", "commercial", "lawyer-client" basis, and to get the 'opinion' _in_writing_, so that *if* the advice received (and which was followed) turns out 'after the fact' to be incorrect, one has recourse aginst the lawyer's malpractice insurance (to make one whole, as far as the 'detrimental reliance' on the opinion that was proven to be incorrect). *I* would be tempted to respond, *once*, to the issuer of such notices, to the effect that customemr info is disclosed only upon receipt of a valid court subpoena, and the 'records production' costs are $$/hr, with an $xx minimum. And, if they persited in the FUD notices, I would explicitly *block* the source (not 'discard', but actively block -- so that they have 'actual notice' of non-delivery). I *WOULD*, however, take my own advice, and pay a competent lawyer for a consultation, BEFORE actually doing anything of the sort. <grin> ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:43:12 +0430 From: Shahab Vahabzadeh <sh.vahabzadeh@gmail.com> To: aj@sneep.net Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Fair Use Policy Message-ID: <CAGqGmqY1ea-oEYWU_wC+D+_ZJsz4KL3dz8iFAAOKJT-xg=E2jQ@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I am using Cisco 7206 VXR with NPE-G2 as my BRAS's. On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:40 PM, Alastair Johnson <aj@sneep.net> wrote:
Depends on your BRAS. Some support time-of-day or other threshold based policy changes.
Generally speaking though you would be better going to an external policy engine.
-----Original Message----- From: Shahab Vahabzadeh <sh.vahabzadeh@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:36:40 To: Owen DeLong<owen@delong.com> Cc: <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Fair Use Policy
What I am talking mostly is some services like COA, in which you can change users shape time-base and periodically without disconnecting them.
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:33 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
If you want to control usage that way, sell a metered product. Bill the heavy users more for their usage.
Otherwise, price your services such that you can build adequate upstream capacity to serve your users.
I'm not a fan of using "rateshaping" (which is what you are describing) to cover for inadequate facilities.
Owen
On Aug 22, 2012, at 11:57 , Shahab Vahabzadeh <sh.vahabzadeh@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Owen, As you know in pick time of internet usage like midnight in which we have free-access times too, some users which really want to use internet for their daily usage and not downloading or using peer-to-peer services unfairly affecting this problem. Some companies are using some polices for users to solve this problem. Do you have any Idea? Thanks
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
I think the first step would be to define what you mean by fair use.
Are you talking in the DMCA sense of the term, the legal sense of the term as applies to IP in other areas, or something else?
Owen
On Aug 22, 2012, at 11:40 , Shahab Vahabzadeh <sh.vahabzadeh@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello Everybody, Has any body any good and easy setup idea for "Fair Use Policy" service for my xdsl customers?! Can do this in the BRAS side and nothing done with accounting and radius? Thanks
-- Regards, Shahab Vahabzadeh, Network Engineer and System Administrator
Cell Phone: +1 (415) 871 0742 PGP Key Fingerprint = 8E34 B335 D702 0CA7 5A81 C2EE 76A2 46C2 5367 BF90
-- Regards, Shahab Vahabzadeh, Network Engineer and System Administrator
Cell Phone: +1 (415) 871 0742 PGP Key Fingerprint = 8E34 B335 D702 0CA7 5A81 C2EE 76A2 46C2 5367 BF90
-- Regards, Shahab Vahabzadeh, Network Engineer and System Administrator
Cell Phone: +1 (415) 871 0742 PGP Key Fingerprint = 8E34 B335 D702 0CA7 5A81 C2EE 76A2 46C2 5367 BF90
-- Regards, Shahab Vahabzadeh, Network Engineer and System Administrator Cell Phone: +1 (415) 871 0742 PGP Key Fingerprint = 8E34 B335 D702 0CA7 5A81 C2EE 76A2 46C2 5367 BF90 End of NANOG Digest, Vol 55, Issue 68 *************************************
In message <20120822192026.47fbaa1c@concur.batblue.com>, "Babak Pasdar" writes:
Sure -- Sounds good.
*What* sounds good? You top posted to a digest with multiple threads in it. If you are going to reply to a digest DO NOT TOP POST the entire digest. Trim the message down to the message(s) you are replying to and fix the subject line. You choose to receive digests. With that choice comes the responsability to reply properly.
-- Babak Pasdar | President & CEO | Certified Ethical Hacker | Bat Blue = Networks (p) 212.461.3322 x3005 | (w) BatBlue.com | (t) @bpasdar : @batblue
[ENTIRE DIGEST DELETED] -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org
On 22/08/12 5:09 PM, Mark Andrews wrote:
You top posted to a digest with multiple threads in it. If you are going to reply to a digest DO NOT TOP POST the entire digest. Trim the message down to the message(s) you are replying to and fix the subject line. You choose to receive digests. With that choice comes the responsability to reply properly.
Frankly, I don't understand why a technical list like NANOG even allows subscribing to a digest - folks here should have the bandwidth to accept individual emails and the technical expertise to filter them etc. That said, it's a very simple matter to configure mailman to automatically bounce back to the sender any and all messages when the subject includes the following text: NANOG Digest, Vol Or the body includes the following text: When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of NANOG digest..." From my past experience managing mailing lists, doing this will eliminate 99.999% of improperly formatted replies to a digest email. jc
participants (3)
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Babak Pasdar -
JC Dill -
Mark Andrews