Re: Cisco's AIP vs HSSI
But I like PPP because cisco still doesn't document their HDLC line protocol. :-) (Go ahead, try to find it online or ask someone on one of the tech support lists to find it for you. :-) What would you like to know? ;-) I'm kidding. Of course I love everything about cisco, since as Dave O'Leary has told me for a long time "Sooner or later everyone ends up working for cisco" and he seems to be right. I beg to differ! ;-) Tony
Kent, Tony, et. al.,
I'm kidding. Of course I love everything about cisco,
Argh. Sounds like a Microsoft person. Do you like the fact that maintenance releases of code are more widely used than production "GDC" versions? Do you like the fact that their hardware QA is hardly there? Do you like the fact that they're so good at capitalism they swallow any potentially innovative competitor? (arguable) I like cisco too, but I'd really prefer that Bay, 3Com, or Netstar were on par w/ cisco and forced them to do things better. As it is, they seem to stagnate from lack of competition... It's arguable that the reason ATM is so available is that cisco had no/little competition to increase router performance.
since as Dave O'Leary has told me for a long time "Sooner or later everyone ends up working for cisco" and he seems to be right.
Or maybe, everyone stops at cisco sometime in their career. Although, I know lots of smart smart smart people who haven't. One of them is looking for a job, and he's not looking at cisco. (not me...) -alan
since as Dave O'Leary has told me for a long time "Sooner or later everyone ends up working for cisco" and he seems to be right.
Or maybe, everyone stops at cisco sometime in their career.
Although, I know lots of smart smart smart people who haven't. One of them is looking for a job, and he's not looking at cisco. (not me...)
And since we have *never* had a Cisco in our own network, as the largest dialup IP provider in the UK if not Europe (as a single company), we have gone from not seeing the need to not seeing the point or buying and Cisco gear. It's like IBM was in the 60s/70s. "No one ever got fired for buying Cisco." Sheesh. -- Peter Galbavy peter@wonderland.org @ Home phone://44/973/499465 in Wonderland http://www.wonderland.org/~peter/ snail://UK/NW1_6LE/London/21_Harewood_Avenue/
On Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:54:11 +0100 (BST), peter@wonderland.org writes:
since as Dave O'Leary has told me for a long time "Sooner or later everyone ends up working for cisco" and he seems to be right.
Or maybe, everyone stops at cisco sometime in their career.
Although, I know lots of smart smart smart people who haven't. One of them is looking for a job, and he's not looking at cisco. (not me...)
And since we have *never* had a Cisco in our own network, as the largest dialup IP provider in the UK if not Europe (as a single company), we have gone from not seeing the need to not seeing the point or buying and Cisco gear. It's like IBM was in the 60s/70s. "No one ever got fired for buying Cisco." Sheesh.
The salespeople in the UK are using that tactic too? If a sales rep EVER walked into my office and fed me a line like that, I would end the meeting right there. As it is, I refuse to do business with Cisco not because of their products, but because of their marketing department and their corporate attitude of "We're the best, nobody can touch us, and if you want to buy our product you better bend over backwards to do what we want you to do." That was their attitude three years ago when our company was just getting started, and I haven't noticed it change much today. As for competition, keep an eye on Bay. They are putting some serious effort into Internet development. The hardware is already there, and has been there for a long time. The software is getting there very quickly, especially with companies like mine and ANS working with them. I have a feeling Cisco will always be in the lead, but they may not have such a comfortable lead for much longer. Which is a Good Thing, since competition fuels development. -Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------- * Jon Green * Wide-Area Networking Technician * * jon@netINS.net * Iowa Network Services, Inc. * * Finger for Geek Code/PGP * 312 8th Street, Suite 730 * * #include "std_disclaimer.h" * Des Moines, IA 50309 * -------------------------------------------------------------------------
The salespeople in the UK are using that tactic too? If a sales rep EVER walked into my office and fed me a line like that, I would end the meeting right there. As it is, I refuse to do business with Cisco not because of their products, but because of their marketing department and their corporate attitude of "We're the best, nobody can touch us, and if you want to buy our product you better bend over backwards to do what we want you to do." That was their attitude three years ago when our company was just getting started, and I haven't noticed it change much today.
No. I think the phrase *actually* used at a meeting (I was elsewhere that day) was "It is a priveledge to deal with a market leader like Cisco." This was the Cisco sales rep, not us. sigh. Buy! Buy! Bye Bye. :-P Regards, -- Peter Galbavy peter@wonderland.org @ Home phone://44/973/499465 in Wonderland http://www.wonderland.org/~peter/ snail://UK/NW1_6LE/London/21_Harewood_Avenue/
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:30:14 +0100 (BST) Peter Galbavy <peter@wonderland.org> alleged:
No. I think the phrase *actually* used at a meeting (I was elsewhere that day) was "It is a priveledge to deal with a market leader like Cisco." This was the Cisco sales rep, not us. sigh.
Buy! Buy! Bye Bye. :-P
Maybe their routers don't load so much though Peter! Regards, Neil. -- Neil J. McRae. Alive and Kicking. E A S Y N E T G R O U P P L C neil@EASYNET.NET NetBSD/sparc: 100% SpF (Solaris protection Factor) Free the daemon in your <A HREF="http://www.NetBSD.ORG/">computer!</A> [N.B.: I have no affilation with Cyberia or the CyberWorkers Unite Party]
As for competition, keep an eye on Bay. They are putting some serious effort into Internet development. The hardware is already there, and has been there for a long time. The software is getting there very quickly, especially with companies like mine and ANS working with them. I have a feeling Cisco will always be in the lead, but they may not have such a comfortable lead for much longer. Which is a Good Thing, since competition fuels development.
-Jon And what do you think about Ascend's effort to get big piece of this market via their new back-bone router?
--- Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow (+7 095) 194-19-95 (Network Operations Center Hot Line),(+7 095) 239-10-10, N 13729 (pager) (+7 095) 196-72-12 (Support), (+7 095) 194-33-28 (Fax)
On Wed, 16 Oct 96 16:01:56 +0400, alex@relcom.eu.net writes:
As for competition, keep an eye on Bay. They are putting some serious effort into Internet development. The hardware is already there, and has been there for a long time. The software is getting there very quickly, especially with companies like mine and ANS working with them. I have a feeling Cisco will always be in the lead, but they may not have such a comfortable lead for much longer. Which is a Good Thing, since competition fuels development.
-Jon And what do you think about Ascend's effort to get big piece of this market via their new back-bone router?
I took a look at the Ascend GRF (which stands for "Goes Real Fast"). I was impressed with the performance of it, but not with the size. It's too small. With only 4 slots, it can have 8 HSSI ports, 8 ATM OC-3 ports, or 4 OC-12 ports. I don't think that's large enough for most of the big providers. It also has no V.35 ports, which are important for some of us that are doing a mixture of high-speed links and slower T1. The number of packets this thing can push through it is impressive, though. -Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------- * Jon Green * Wide-Area Networking Technician * * jon@netINS.net * Iowa Network Services, Inc. * * Finger for Geek Code/PGP * 312 8th Street, Suite 730 * * #include "std_disclaimer.h" * Des Moines, IA 50309 * -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon, Are you aware of the 16-slot Ascend/NetStar GigaRouter? I am not sure if this router supports HSSI/Ethernet yet. Randy
I took a look at the Ascend GRF (which stands for "Goes Real Fast"). I was impressed with the performance of it, but not with the size. It's too small. With only 4 slots, it can have 8 HSSI ports, 8 ATM OC-3 ports, or 4 OC-12 ports. I don't think that's large enough for most of the big providers. It also has no V.35 ports, which are important for some of us that are doing a mixture of high-speed links and slower T1. The number of packets this thing can push through it is impressive, though.
-Jon
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Randolph C. Nicklas MCI Telecommunications vBNS Engineering 2100 Reston Parkway Phone: 703.715.7099 Reston, VA 22091 Fax: 703.715.7066 Pager: 1-800-SKY-8888 PIN 902418
At 9:09 AM -0400 10/16/96, Randolph C. Nicklas wrote:
Are you aware of the 16-slot Ascend/NetStar GigaRouter? I am not sure if this router supports HSSI/Ethernet yet.
I'm fairly sure it supports both, as well as FDDI and all the other media cited in the earlier message. Regards, --John -- John Scudder email: jgs@ieng.com Internet Engineering Group, LLC phone: (313) 669-8800 122 S. Main, Suite 280 fax: (313) 669-8661 Ann Arbor, MI 41804 www: http://www.ieng.com
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, John G. Scudder wrote:
At 9:09 AM -0400 10/16/96, Randolph C. Nicklas wrote:
Are you aware of the 16-slot Ascend/NetStar GigaRouter? I am not sure if this router supports HSSI/Ethernet yet.
I'm fairly sure it supports both, as well as FDDI and all the other media cited in the earlier message.
Hmm.. It's been awhile since I spoke with the Netstar people (approx 8 months or so). At the time, the box supported 10baseT, AUI, 100baseT, FDDI, HSSI, OC-3ATM (I believe) and maybe CDDI. No V.35 low speed stuff. Correct me if I'm wrong. Patrick J. Chicas Email: pjc@unix.off-road.com URL: http://www.Off-Road.com
At 12:48 PM -1000 10/16/96, Patrick J. Chicas wrote:
Hmm.. It's been awhile since I spoke with the Netstar people (approx 8 months or so). At the time, the box supported 10baseT, AUI, 100baseT, FDDI, HSSI, OC-3ATM (I believe) and maybe CDDI. No V.35 low speed stuff.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
That sounds right, as far as I know. Regards, --John -- John Scudder email: jgs@ieng.com Internet Engineering Group, LLC phone: (313) 669-8800 122 S. Main, Suite 280 fax: (313) 669-8661 Ann Arbor, MI 41804 www: http://www.ieng.com
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Randolph C. Nicklas wrote:
Jon,
Are you aware of the 16-slot Ascend/NetStar GigaRouter? I am not sure if this router supports HSSI/Ethernet yet.
I just got a GRF 1600 in to test and I love it, I would like to here all the bad stuff about them ASAP, because I plan on sending them a PO for 8 of them. They now have a 16 port and cards like: 4 port FDDI 2 port HSSI 4 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 8 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 2 port OC-3 1 port Oc-12 Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
Just do it. We all will most eagerly wait for your reports on their behaviour in real life. Dima Nathan Stratton writes:
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Randolph C. Nicklas wrote:
Jon,
Are you aware of the 16-slot Ascend/NetStar GigaRouter? I am not sure if this router supports HSSI/Ethernet yet.
I just got a GRF 1600 in to test and I love it, I would like to here all the bad stuff about them ASAP, because I plan on sending them a PO for 8 of them.
They now have a 16 port and cards like:
4 port FDDI 2 port HSSI 4 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 8 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 2 port OC-3 1 port Oc-12
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Dima Volodin wrote:
Just do it. We all will most eagerly wait for your reports on their behaviour in real life.
Well ok, I just hate to be the first one to try them. I was hoping others had tried them first. :-( Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
I have also heard that a few GRFs are planned for a future MFS NAP in Atlanta or Orlando. Does anyone have more information on it? -Mulugu ========================================================= Mulugu Srinivasarao Tel : 703/904-2013 SprintLink Engineering Fax : 703/904-2292 Sprint, GSD Bldg. On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Nathan Stratton wrote:
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Randolph C. Nicklas wrote:
Jon,
Are you aware of the 16-slot Ascend/NetStar GigaRouter? I am not sure if this router supports HSSI/Ethernet yet.
I just got a GRF 1600 in to test and I love it, I would like to here all the bad stuff about them ASAP, because I plan on sending them a PO for 8 of them.
They now have a 16 port and cards like:
4 port FDDI 2 port HSSI 4 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 8 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 2 port OC-3 1 port Oc-12
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
Nathan, The vBNS (www.vbns.net) has five GigaRouters, one for each Supercomputer site it serves. Each GR has one HiPPI interface, one ATM/OC3c card, and one FDDI card. We run OSPF and BGP4 over a full ATM PVC mesh. We recently started to deploy v4.7.6, which enables the GigaRouter to take full routing. Our NetStars work well with our Cisco 7000/7507s, but our OSPF and especially our BGP4 configurations are very vanilla. We have had some issues with the GigaRouters during my tenure here--I prefer to discuss details one-on-one. Overall, I think NetStars are a viable alternative to Cisco. Best Regards, Randy On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Nathan Stratton wrote:
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Randolph C. Nicklas wrote:
Jon,
Are you aware of the 16-slot Ascend/NetStar GigaRouter? I am not sure if this router supports HSSI/Ethernet yet.
I just got a GRF 1600 in to test and I love it, I would like to here all the bad stuff about them ASAP, because I plan on sending them a PO for 8 of them.
They now have a 16 port and cards like:
4 port FDDI 2 port HSSI 4 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 8 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 2 port OC-3 1 port Oc-12
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
------------------------------------------------------------------------ Randolph C. Nicklas MCI Telecommunications vBNS Engineering 2100 Reston Parkway Phone: 703.715.7099 Reston, VA 22091 Fax: 703.715.7066 Pager: 1-800-SKY-8888 PIN 902418
So did they get all the nasty crashing bugs out of Netstar's broken version of gated? In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.961016094420.26471G-100000@netrail.net>, Nathan Strat ton writes:
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Randolph C. Nicklas wrote:
Jon,
Are you aware of the 16-slot Ascend/NetStar GigaRouter? I am not sure if this router supports HSSI/Ethernet yet.
I just got a GRF 1600 in to test and I love it, I would like to here all the bad stuff about them ASAP, because I plan on sending them a PO for 8 of them.
They now have a 16 port and cards like:
4 port FDDI 2 port HSSI 4 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 8 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 2 port OC-3 1 port Oc-12
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future tod ay! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
--- Jeremy Porter, Freeside Communications, Inc. jerry@fc.net PO BOX 80315 Austin, Tx 78708 | 1-800-968-8750 | 512-458-9810 http://www.fc.net
You said - "gated"? Oh my gawd... Dima Jeremy Porter writes:
So did they get all the nasty crashing bugs out of Netstar's broken version of gated?
In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.961016094420.26471G-100000@netrail.net>, Nathan Strat ton writes:
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Randolph C. Nicklas wrote:
Jon,
Are you aware of the 16-slot Ascend/NetStar GigaRouter? I am not sure if this router supports HSSI/Ethernet yet.
I just got a GRF 1600 in to test and I love it, I would like to here all the bad stuff about them ASAP, because I plan on sending them a PO for 8 of them.
They now have a 16 port and cards like:
4 port FDDI 2 port HSSI 4 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 8 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 2 port OC-3 1 port Oc-12
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future tod ay! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
--- Jeremy Porter, Freeside Communications, Inc. jerry@fc.net PO BOX 80315 Austin, Tx 78708 | 1-800-968-8750 | 512-458-9810 http://www.fc.net
On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:46:37 -0400 (EDT) dvv@sprint.net (Dima Volodin) alleged:
You said - "gated"? Oh my gawd...
GateD rules. I'd prefer it over any Cisco based implementation, thats for sure. Neil. -- Neil J. McRae. Alive and Kicking. E A S Y N E T G R O U P P L C neil@EASYNET.NET NetBSD/sparc: 100% SpF (Solaris protection Factor) Free the daemon in your <A HREF="http://www.NetBSD.ORG/">computer!</A> [N.B.: I have no affilation with Cyberia or the CyberWorkers Unite Party]
On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Neil J. McRae wrote:
On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:46:37 -0400 (EDT) dvv@sprint.net (Dima Volodin) alleged:
You said - "gated"? Oh my gawd...
GateD rules. I'd prefer it over any Cisco based implementation, thats for sure.
Um, folks? Let's save the religious wars for discussion over lunch at NANOG, okay? Please? (I don't mean to pick on anybody directly -- I'd just prefer to get some useful ideas out of this list. When I want to read unresolvable religious wars I go to news.admin.net-abuse.misc and turn of my killfile.) -- J.D. Falk <lart@cais.net> Network Operations Center <noc@cais.net> CAIS Internet Office (703) 448-4470 McLean, Virginia, USA NOC 1-888-CAIS-NOC
Subject: Re: GigaRouter (Was Re: Cisco as Big Brother)) From: dvv@sprint.net (Dima Volodin)
You said - "gated"? Oh my gawd...
I agree. Oh my gawd, someone is using one of the most efficient and reliable pieces of routing code around. What a really great idea. There are other smart router vendors who use various route and policy storage data structures from gated. Oh my gawd. Some smart router vendors are implementing dynamic non-intrusive policy config on their routers this year. Gated had that 4 1/2 years ago. Oh my gawd. Etc etc... RobS
>Subject: Re: GigaRouter (Was Re: Cisco as Big Brother)) >From: dvv@sprint.net (Dima Volodin)
>You said - "gated"? Oh my gawd...
I agree. Oh my gawd, someone is using one of the most efficient and reliable pieces of routing code around. What a really great idea. There are other smart router vendors who use various route and policy storage data structures from gated. Oh my gawd. Some smart router vendors are implementing dynamic non-intrusive policy config on their routers this year. Gated had that 4 1/2 years ago. Oh my gawd. Etc etc...
RobS
Let's compare: aggregate 144.206.0.0 mask 255.255.0.0 { proto direct { 144.206.128.0 mask 255.255.255.0; }; }; generate default preference 190 { proto bgp { 192.157.68.0 mask 255.255.255.0; }; }; OR import proto bgp aspath 2895 (2587|5431) origin any preference 165 # FREEne { #### LEVEL 2 FILE customers/FREEnet START # FREEnet 147.45.0.0 masklen 16 exact; 193.232.92.0 masklen 24 exact; 193.233.0.0 masklen 16 exact; ###EOF #### LEVEL 2 FILE customers/FREEnet STOP }; - simple, obvious. And IOS: ! Import from FREEnet no ip as-path access-list 6 ip as-path access-list 6 permit ^2895_(|2587|3325|5431)$ ip as-path access-list 6 deny .* ! or, better: no route-map mplik-in ! mplik route-map mplik-in permit 10 match as-path 35 set local-pref 125 set weight 50 ! !+ start mplik !+ action clear ip b 194.58.115.26 !+ as-accl 35 !+ ip-accl 35 ! no ip as-path access-list 35 ip as-path access-list 35 permit ^3253$ ip as-path access-list 35 permit ^3253_5460$ ip as-path access-list 35 deny .* ! no access-list 35 access-list 35 permit 193.124.176.0 access-list 35 permit 193.124.189.0 access-list 35 permit 194.58.60.0 access-list 35 permit 194.58.61.0 access-list 35 permit 194.58.99.0 ... And - ACCESS-LISTS, NUMBERS, NAMES, etc - many many noice in the config files. We dawmned the god when have being moved our IP routing configuration from gated to CISCO... Of cource gated.conf is not (in usial revision) so powerfull as IOS, but ideas - ideas in gated was great, and gated works well even now. For example: % wc /etc/gated.conf 5188 20527 160400 /etc/gated.conf -:) --- Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow (+7 095) 194-19-95 (Network Operations Center Hot Line),(+7 095) 239-10-10, N 13729 (pager) (+7 095) 196-72-12 (Support), (+7 095) 194-33-28 (Fax)
alex@relcom.eu.net writes:
>Subject: Re: GigaRouter (Was Re: Cisco as Big Brother)) >From: dvv@sprint.net (Dima Volodin)
>You said - "gated"? Oh my gawd...
I agree. Oh my gawd, someone is using one of the most efficient and reliable pieces of routing code around. What a really great idea. There are other smart router vendors who use various route and policy storage data structures from gated. Oh my gawd. Some smart router vendors are implementing dynamic non-intrusive policy config on their routers this year. Gated had that 4 1/2 years ago. Oh my gawd. Etc etc...
RobS
Gated would dump core like crazy and lose routes and adjacencies 5 years ago and it does the same now. Well, on the second thought, I don't think there's any real reason to bitch about it - all the other free reference stuff (sendmail, inn, etc, etc. Even 4.4) is plagued with the same problems. And everybody is kind of accustomed to the status quo. As of data structures - I remember there was a course on data structures on my first university year. And you know what? I haven't seen anything new since then - gated or no gated.
Let's compare: [...]
Oh. Don't tell my you do all this on your own and don't use some kind of conf-generating script.
Of cource gated.conf is not (in usial revision) so powerfull as IOS, but ideas - ideas in gated was great, and gated works well even now.
Karl Marx's soul to the soul of Friedrich Engels: "Oh yes. But the idea was b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l..."
Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow
Dima
On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:35:35 -0400 (EDT) dvv@sprint.net (Dima Volodin) alleged:
Gated would dump core like crazy and lose routes and adjacencies 5 years ago and it does the same now. Well, on the second thought, I don't think there's any real reason to bitch about it - all the other free reference stuff (sendmail, inn, etc, etc. Even 4.4) is plagued with the same problems. And everybody is kind of accustomed to the status quo. As of data structures - I remember there was a course on data structures on my first university year. And you know what? I haven't seen anything new since then - gated or no gated.
Absolute crap. gated does not dump core and does not lose routes, certainly not on my routers which peer at the LINX, with BTnet, and RAIN. What I have to do is mail other people constantly because the cisco gets confused about subnets and the like: gated[7075] version R3_6Alpha_2 memory dump on battlezone.router.easynet .fr at Fri Oct 18 19:42:51 1996 BSDI BSD/OS 2.1 Kernel #2: Wed Aug 28 16:41:03 BST 1996 neil@galaxians.router.EASYNET.NET:/usr/src/sys/compile/ROUTER-FR Started at Tue Oct 8 22:19:22 1996
Karl Marx's soul to the soul of Friedrich Engels: "Oh yes. But the idea was b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l..."
Dima
Sprint still living in the dark ages as per usual. Regards, Neil. -- Neil J. McRae. Alive and Kicking. E A S Y N E T G R O U P P L C neil@EASYNET.NET NetBSD/sparc: 100% SpF (Solaris protection Factor) Free the daemon in your <A HREF="http://www.NetBSD.ORG/">computer!</A> [N.B.: I have no affilation with Cyberia or the CyberWorkers Unite Party]
On Fri, 18 Oct 1996 11:35:35 -0400 (EDT) dvv@sprint.net (Dima Volodin) alleged:
Gated would dump core like crazy and lose routes and adjacencies 5 years ago and it does the same now. Well, on the second thought, I don't think there's any real reason to bitch about it - all the other free reference stuff (sendmail, inn, etc, etc. Even 4.4) is plagued with the same problems. And everybody is kind of accustomed to the status quo. As of data structures - I remember there was a course on data structures on my first university year. And you know what? I haven't seen anything new since then - gated or no gated.
Absolute crap. gated does not dump core and does not lose routes, certainly not on my routers which peer at the LINX, with BTnet, and RAIN. What I have to do is mail other people constantly because the cisco gets confused about subnets and the like:
Let me get it straight - subnets at peering points? What we are talking about here?
gated[7075] version R3_6Alpha_2 memory dump on battlezone.router.easynet .fr at Fri Oct 18 19:42:51 1996 BSDI BSD/OS 2.1 Kernel #2: Wed Aug 28 16:41:03 BST 1996 neil@galaxians.router.EASYNET.NET:/usr/src/sys/compile/ROUTER-FR Started at Tue Oct 8 22:19:22 1996
Karl Marx's soul to the soul of Friedrich Engels: "Oh yes. But the idea was b-e-a-u-t-i-f-u-l..."
Dima
Sprint still living in the dark ages as per usual.
Dark ages my ass (pardon my French). Nowhere in my message I indicated or implied that my experience with gated or lack thereof had something to with Sprint. The only routing software in production on SprintLink routers is IOS. Whether the latter belongs to the dark ages or not is a subject of a separate discussion. As of my limited personal experience with gated - it's limited by approx 40% of my working time in the years 1991-1994 (including the first (AFAIK) box east of Zhmerinka with full-routing BGP session (a FreeBSD-running PC with a Riscom board)). My sudden short encounter with gated one month ago had unexpectedly strong nostalgic flavour - that's why my reaction to the word was a little bit emotional.
Neil.
Dima P.S. If anybody still wants to flame me - get off the lists.
In message <199610181535.LAA16775@mercury.int.sprintlink.net>, Dima Volodin wri tes:
alex@relcom.eu.net writes:
>Subject: Re: GigaRouter (Was Re: Cisco as Big Brother)) >From: dvv@sprint.net (Dima Volodin)
>You said - "gated"? Oh my gawd...
I agree. Oh my gawd, someone is using one of the most efficient and reliable pieces of routing code around. What a really great idea. There are other smart router vendors who use various route and policy storage data structures from gated. Oh my gawd. Some smart router vendors are implementing dynamic non-intrusive policy config on their routers this year. Gated had that 4 1/2 years ago. Oh my gawd. Etc etc...
RobS
Gated would dump core like crazy and lose routes and adjacencies 5 years ago and it does the same now. Well, on the second thought, I don't think there's any real reason to bitch about it - all the other free reference stuff (sendmail, inn, etc, etc. Even 4.4) is plagued with the same problems. And everybody is kind of accustomed to the status quo. As of data structures - I remember there was a course on data structures on my first university year. And you know what? I haven't seen anything new since then - gated or no gated.
Gated was the most reliable routing platform we had when the NSS were retired. It wasn't perfect in that we still had an unresolved assertion error occasionally but it either ran and pointed everything in the right direction or asserted, dumped, and restarted. The alternates can't seem to get routes to consistently point in the right direction and so I'd have to say are much worse. I'll take a 5 minute assertion and recovery once a week over a persistent route loop or black hole. I don't know of any commercial router which gets the routes and next hop right as consistently as gated does, that includes both Cisco and Bay. The fact that gated could accept complex routing configurations and flawlessly reconfigure usually in under a minute is something commercial routers still have not matched. wrt - conf syntax. My preference is for a structured context free grammar that I can edit or inspect with a powerful text editor if I need to rather than a line oriented command interface primarily intended to be typed in one line at a time. That's just a personal preference. Curtis
You said - "gated"? Oh my gawd...
Dima But in some aspects 'gated' is much more friendly than IOS, and why do you think they could not make it better?
Jeremy Porter writes:
So did they get all the nasty crashing bugs out of Netstar's broken version of gated?
In message <Pine.LNX.3.95.961016094420.26471G-100000@netrail.net>, Nathan Strat ton writes:
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Randolph C. Nicklas wrote:
Jon,
Are you aware of the 16-slot Ascend/NetStar GigaRouter? I am not sure if this router supports HSSI/Ethernet yet.
I just got a GRF 1600 in to test and I love it, I would like to here all the bad stuff about them ASAP, because I plan on sending them a PO for 8 of them.
They now have a 16 port and cards like:
4 port FDDI 2 port HSSI 4 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 8 port ethernet 10/100 Base T 2 port OC-3 1 port Oc-12
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future tod ay! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
--- Jeremy Porter, Freeside Communications, Inc. jerry@fc.net PO BOX 80315 Austin, Tx 78708 | 1-800-968-8750 | 512-458-9810 http://www.fc.net
--- Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow (+7 095) 194-19-95 (Network Operations Center Hot Line),(+7 095) 239-10-10, N 13729 (pager) (+7 095) 196-72-12 (Support), (+7 095) 194-33-28 (Fax)
In message <199610180549.AAA14323@freeside.fc.net>you write:
So did they get all the nasty crashing bugs out of Netstar's broken version of gated?
Netstar no longer uses their own modified gated; you can run whatever release of gated you like. The magic now happens below the routing socket, as opposed to in gated itself. Bill
Sorry to send thsi twice, i.e. we can change and modiy our gated? On Fri, 18 Oct 1996, Bill Fenner wrote:
In message <199610180549.AAA14323@freeside.fc.net>you write:
So did they get all the nasty crashing bugs out of Netstar's broken version of gated?
Netstar no longer uses their own modified gated; you can run whatever release of gated you like. The magic now happens below the routing socket, as opposed to in gated itself.
Bill
Nathan Stratton CEO, NetRail, Inc. Tracking the future today! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phone (703)524-4800 NetRail, Inc. Fax (703)534-5033 2007 N. 15 St. Suite 5 Email sales@netrail.net Arlington, Va. 22201 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Access: (703) 524-4802 guest --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34
So did they get all the nasty crashing bugs out of Netstar's broken version of gated?
You don't need Netstar's version. Any version of GateD is broken and has nasty crashing bugs. And so has every version of Cisco IOS so far, though I will credit Cisco with having an occasional release without Alpha or Beta in its name.
I like cisco too, but I'd really prefer that Bay, 3Com, or Netstar were on par w/ cisco and forced them to do things better. As it is, they seem to stagnate from lack of competition...
Yes. This is key. Give me something with a command line interface; as many options for controlling OSPF and BGP; completely interoperable OSPF and BGP w/ Ciscos, using the same algorithms for route selection; and I'll consider it and perhaps buy some. It's a catch-22, but few (esp. large) providers have the engineering time to set up a separate backbone and slow-migrate customers over to another backbone based on different routers/router technology (hi, Curtis). As a result, they stay locked in to Ciscos - with their admitted and perceived problems.
-alan
Avi
I like cisco too, but I'd really prefer that Bay, 3Com, or Netstar were on par w/ cisco and forced them to do things better. As it is, they seem to stagnate from lack of competition...
Yes. This is key.
Give me something with a command line interface; as many options for controlling OSPF and BGP; completely interoperable OSPF and BGP w/ Ciscos, using the same algorithms for route selection; and I'll consider it and perhaps buy some. And moreover, add there a lot of people familiar with this routers over the whole world.
I know somebody there who works with BAY, they hate this routers. --- Aleksei Roudnev, Network Operations Center, Relcom, Moscow (+7 095) 194-19-95 (Network Operations Center Hot Line),(+7 095) 239-10-10, N 13729 (pager) (+7 095) 196-72-12 (Support), (+7 095) 194-33-28 (Fax)
participants (20)
-
alan＠mindvision.com -
alex＠relcom.eu.net -
Avi Freedman -
Bill Fenner -
Curtis Villamizar -
dvv＠sprint.net -
dvv＠ultra1.demos.su -
JDF -
Jeremy Porter -
John G. Scudder -
Jon Green -
Nathan Stratton -
Neil J. McRae -
Patrick J. Chicas -
Paul A Vixie -
Peter Galbavy -
Randolph C. Nicklas -
Rob Skrobola -
Srinivasarao Mulugu -
Tony Li