I am looking for some guidance from the list. We will soon be deploying wireless payment devices (CDMA/GSM). We are looking at options on where to locate the servers that will run the backend payment gateways; we would like the least amount of latency between the servers and the wireless networks as possible. The wireless networks we will be deploying the devices on are: AT&T Wireless Verizon Wireless Sprint PCS Rogers Wireless Bell Mobility Telus Mobility Vodafone I was thinking we have a few options, to try and peer with the wireless networks directly, buy bandwidth from networks that are directly peered with the wireless operators or the Global Roaming Exchange Peering service that Equinix runs but I have not been able to find out much more then what is on Equinix’s public web site. We also have a need to peer with PayPal and Amazon. I welcome the lists comments and recommendations.
With the assumption that you will have a wired backhaul to your HQ over which the retail access-layer devices connect to commerce servers, make sure that the wireless carrier's gateways to their wired network (where the wired backhaul is connected to) are geographically well-dispersed such that wireless access traffic from (for example) suburban Los Angeles destined for a Los Angeles HQ data center, does not traverse the US back to the east coast before it enters the carrier's wired backbone. Surprisingly, some large wireless carriers appear to think that 2 continental traversals for each packet is an acceptable network design. I have experienced round trip latency between sites 50 miles apart measured at 750-1500 milliseconds when using GSM/CDMA wireless as the access layer method. The key is to ask the wireless carrier where the network-to-network interfaces between the wireless and wired backbone networks are located, and moreover, how many interfaces are there. Some large wireless carriers have a single wireless/wired gateway for the entire US! -----Original Message----- From: Leo Woltz [mailto:leo.woltz@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, September 25, 2010 1:37 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Mobile Operator Connectivity I am looking for some guidance from the list. We will soon be deploying wireless payment devices (CDMA/GSM). We are looking at options on where to locate the servers that will run the backend payment gateways; we would like the least amount of latency between the servers and the wireless networks as possible. The wireless networks we will be deploying the devices on are: AT&T Wireless Verizon Wireless Sprint PCS Rogers Wireless Bell Mobility Telus Mobility Vodafone I was thinking we have a few options, to try and peer with the wireless networks directly, buy bandwidth from networks that are directly peered with the wireless operators or the Global Roaming Exchange Peering service that Equinix runs but I have not been able to find out much more then what is on Equinix's public web site. We also have a need to peer with PayPal and Amazon. I welcome the lists comments and recommendations.
On 9/25/2010 13:37, Leo Woltz wrote:
I am looking for some guidance from the list. We will soon be deploying wireless payment devices (CDMA/GSM). We are looking at options on where to locate the servers that will run the backend payment gateways; we would like the least amount of latency between the servers and the wireless networks as possible. The wireless networks we will be deploying the devices on are:
Sprint PCS
For Sprint you can get a circuit to AS1239 and just take customer routes. Their PCS network is AS10507, but as far as I know the closest you can get to it is 1239. ~Seth
Some large telcos with wireless and wireline operations in the US maintain 2 separate backbones: one that I call "wired", that corresponds to traditional wired access where commerce servers are usually located; and one that I call a "wireless" backbone, where GSM/CDMA wireless devices are used to aggregate access-layer traffic. Both backbones consist of national fiber-optic, BGP-based networks. Surprisingly, some large telcos have a presence of both wireline and wireless backbones in the same colos, but the 2 backbone networks are interconnected, not in that colo, but at a single geographic location (with perhaps a single hot standby interconnection site), located, for example in northern Virginia. So, the worst case is that if the servers and GSM/CDMA devices are located in Southern California, even though the telco has a wireline and wireless presence in the local LA colo, GSM/CDMA access-layer traffic must traverse the continental US to northern Virginia and back to get to the server. -----Original Message----- From: Seth Mattinen [mailto:sethm@rollernet.us] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:14 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Mobile Operator Connectivity On 9/25/2010 13:37, Leo Woltz wrote:
I am looking for some guidance from the list. We will soon be deploying wireless payment devices (CDMA/GSM). We are looking at options on where to locate the servers that will run the backend payment gateways; we would like the least amount of latency between the servers and the wireless networks as possible. The wireless networks we will be deploying the devices on are:
Sprint PCS
For Sprint you can get a circuit to AS1239 and just take customer routes. Their PCS network is AS10507, but as far as I know the closest you can get to it is 1239. ~Seth
I would suggest getting on the GRX network. As an enterprise you should be able to get IPX service from any number of providers. Belgacom, Syniverse, and Sybase365 all offer IP data service onto the GRX. Then you aren't limited to just the US carriers, you'll be able to reach most all carriers globally. ~Jared
Hi Jared Is this different then the service at Equinix? Leo On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Jared Geiger <jared@compuwizz.net> wrote:
I would suggest getting on the GRX network. As an enterprise you should be able to get IPX service from any number of providers. Belgacom, Syniverse, and Sybase365 all offer IP data service onto the GRX. Then you aren't limited to just the US carriers, you'll be able to reach most all carriers globally.
~Jared
I think the service Equinix hosts is for data roaming -----Original Message----- From: Leo Woltz [mailto:leo.woltz@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 2:16 PM To: Jared Geiger Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Mobile Operator Connectivity Hi Jared Is this different then the service at Equinix? Leo On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Jared Geiger <jared@compuwizz.net> wrote:
I would suggest getting on the GRX network. As an enterprise you should be able to get IPX service from any number of providers. Belgacom, Syniverse, and Sybase365 all offer IP data service onto the GRX. Then you aren't limited to just the US carriers, you'll be able to reach most all carriers globally.
~Jared
On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 6:57 AM, Jared Geiger <jared@compuwizz.net> wrote:
I would suggest getting on the GRX network. As an enterprise you should be able to get IPX service from any number of providers. Belgacom, Syniverse, and Sybase365 all offer IP data service onto the GRX. Then you aren't limited to just the US carriers, you'll be able to reach most all carriers globally.
Folks, GRX is for data roaming between mobile providers, not for connecting eye balls and content. Only mobile operators are members of the GRX, not customers of mobile operators or content of any sort. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPRS_Roaming_Exchange Here's an example, I am a T-Mobile USA subscriber. I travel to Canada and roam on to Rogers's network. When i start a data session on my mobile phone, Rogers passes all the data traffic back to T-Mobile via the GRX peering exchange. When in Canada, my HTTP traffic does not exit in Canada, it is tunneled back via GRX peering to T-Mobile in the USA and exit's in the USA. The roamed into network (Roger's in my example) is just an access network to reach the network that i subscriber to (T-Mobile USA). As someone else may have noted, your best best is to figure out where the mobile providers peer out on the Internet and purchase access in the same region and ISP as the mobile provider. Also, as someone else noted, some mobile providers do a lot of aggregation that adds latency, other mobile providers are more distributed and punt to the ISP closer to the user. Regards, Cameron ======== http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta ========
From the research I have been doing the only mobile operator I have found open to peering is Vodafone I hope this is helpful.
-----Original Message----- From: Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 2:33 PM To: Jared Geiger Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Mobile Operator Connectivity On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 6:57 AM, Jared Geiger <jared@compuwizz.net> wrote:
I would suggest getting on the GRX network. As an enterprise you should be able to get IPX service from any number of providers. Belgacom, Syniverse, and Sybase365 all offer IP data service onto the GRX. Then you aren't limited to just the US carriers, you'll be able to reach most all carriers globally.
Folks, GRX is for data roaming between mobile providers, not for connecting eye balls and content. Only mobile operators are members of the GRX, not customers of mobile operators or content of any sort. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPRS_Roaming_Exchange Here's an example, I am a T-Mobile USA subscriber. I travel to Canada and roam on to Rogers's network. When i start a data session on my mobile phone, Rogers passes all the data traffic back to T-Mobile via the GRX peering exchange. When in Canada, my HTTP traffic does not exit in Canada, it is tunneled back via GRX peering to T-Mobile in the USA and exit's in the USA. The roamed into network (Roger's in my example) is just an access network to reach the network that i subscriber to (T-Mobile USA). As someone else may have noted, your best best is to figure out where the mobile providers peer out on the Internet and purchase access in the same region and ISP as the mobile provider. Also, as someone else noted, some mobile providers do a lot of aggregation that adds latency, other mobile providers are more distributed and punt to the ISP closer to the user. Regards, Cameron ======== http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta ========
What is the IPX service? -----Original Message----- From: Jared Geiger [mailto:jared@compuwizz.net] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 9:58 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Mobile Operator Connectivity I would suggest getting on the GRX network. As an enterprise you should be able to get IPX service from any number of providers. Belgacom, Syniverse, and Sybase365 all offer IP data service onto the GRX. Then you aren't limited to just the US carriers, you'll be able to reach most all carriers globally. ~Jared
I have been working on a similar project and I am finding it very hard to get the mobile operators to understand why we want as little latency as possible and they are not very open to people peering with their "wireless" backbone. I hope this will change with more and more eyeballs going wireless. -----Original Message----- From: Holmes,David A [mailto:dholmes@mwdh2o.com] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 9:42 PM To: Seth Mattinen; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Mobile Operator Connectivity Some large telcos with wireless and wireline operations in the US maintain 2 separate backbones: one that I call "wired", that corresponds to traditional wired access where commerce servers are usually located; and one that I call a "wireless" backbone, where GSM/CDMA wireless devices are used to aggregate access-layer traffic. Both backbones consist of national fiber-optic, BGP-based networks. Surprisingly, some large telcos have a presence of both wireline and wireless backbones in the same colos, but the 2 backbone networks are interconnected, not in that colo, but at a single geographic location (with perhaps a single hot standby interconnection site), located, for example in northern Virginia. So, the worst case is that if the servers and GSM/CDMA devices are located in Southern California, even though the telco has a wireline and wireless presence in the local LA colo, GSM/CDMA access-layer traffic must traverse the continental US to northern Virginia and back to get to the server. -----Original Message----- From: Seth Mattinen [mailto:sethm@rollernet.us] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:14 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Mobile Operator Connectivity On 9/25/2010 13:37, Leo Woltz wrote:
I am looking for some guidance from the list. We will soon be deploying wireless payment devices (CDMA/GSM). We are looking at options on where to locate the servers that will run the backend payment gateways; we would like the least amount of latency between the servers and the wireless networks as possible. The wireless networks we will be deploying the devices on are:
Sprint PCS
For Sprint you can get a circuit to AS1239 and just take customer routes. Their PCS network is AS10507, but as far as I know the closest you can get to it is 1239. ~Seth
On 10/9/10 5:08 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
I have been working on a similar project and I am finding it very hard to get the mobile operators to understand why we want as little latency as possible and they are not very open to people peering with their "wireless" backbone.
Possibly because the way that they tunnel GTP to the GGSN and the locations of GGSN devices relative to the handsets served preclude as little latency as possible.
I hope this will change with more and more eyeballs going wireless.
LTE provides an opportunity to move the bottleneck.
-----Original Message----- From: Holmes,David A [mailto:dholmes@mwdh2o.com] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 9:42 PM To: Seth Mattinen; nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Mobile Operator Connectivity
Some large telcos with wireless and wireline operations in the US maintain 2 separate backbones: one that I call "wired", that corresponds to traditional wired access where commerce servers are usually located; and one that I call a "wireless" backbone, where GSM/CDMA wireless devices are used to aggregate access-layer traffic. Both backbones consist of national fiber-optic, BGP-based networks. Surprisingly, some large telcos have a presence of both wireline and wireless backbones in the same colos, but the 2 backbone networks are interconnected, not in that colo, but at a single geographic location (with perhaps a single hot standby interconnection site), located, for example in northern Virginia.
So, the worst case is that if the servers and GSM/CDMA devices are located in Southern California, even though the telco has a wireline and wireless presence in the local LA colo, GSM/CDMA access-layer traffic must traverse the continental US to northern Virginia and back to get to the server.
-----Original Message----- From: Seth Mattinen [mailto:sethm@rollernet.us] Sent: Monday, September 27, 2010 1:14 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Mobile Operator Connectivity
On 9/25/2010 13:37, Leo Woltz wrote:
I am looking for some guidance from the list. We will soon be deploying wireless payment devices (CDMA/GSM). We are looking at options on where to locate the servers that will run the backend payment gateways; we would like the least amount of latency between the servers and the wireless networks as possible. The wireless networks we will be deploying the devices on are:
Sprint PCS
For Sprint you can get a circuit to AS1239 and just take customer routes. Their PCS network is AS10507, but as far as I know the closest you can get to it is 1239.
~Seth
On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com> wrote:
On 10/9/10 5:08 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote:
I have been working on a similar project and I am finding it very hard to get the mobile operators to understand why we want as little latency as possible and they are not very open to people peering with their "wireless" backbone.
Possibly because the way that they tunnel GTP to the GGSN and the locations of GGSN devices relative to the handsets served preclude as little latency as possible.
Yes. Some mobile providers are more heavily aggregated than others. I have been pushing for decreasing the architectural latency in the mobile architecture with IPv6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GlRgaFriYU#t=29m45 But there are a lot of roadblocks, some more technical than others. Also, the wireless providers generally don't have a point of presence in the peering NAPs. I have run this business case a few times for my company and it generally is a financial wash, and therefore not worth the effort to deploy and support additional transport and nodes at the peering locations. It's simpler and cheaper to just punt the Internet traffic out of the wireless networks as soon as possible to an ISP, and those ISP frequently own the fiber transport as well. But, like anything, you can always ask your B2B account manager for a special setup. There are special setups that i know for corporate customers.
I hope this will change with more and more eyeballs going wireless.
LTE provides an opportunity to move the bottleneck.
LTE provides some latency benefits on the wireless interface, but the actual packet core architecture is very similar to GSM / UMTS. For those concerned about latency, the key is working with the wireless operator to find where the mobility aggregation points are and how they are connected to the Internet. More advanced applications at large scale can justify direct peering, but i don't imagine that achieves much real latency benefits over just being properly coordinated with the locations and ISPs. Cameron ======= http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta =======
On 10/10/10 12:38 PM, Cameron Byrne wrote:
On Sun, Oct 10, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Joel Jaeggli <joelja@bogus.com> wrote:
On 10/9/10 5:08 PM, Ryan Finnesey wrote: LTE provides an opportunity to move the bottleneck.
LTE provides some latency benefits on the wireless interface, but the actual packet core architecture is very similar to GSM / UMTS.
right, renaming the the GPRS Core Network to SAE doesn't really impart much magic to it. the air interface is certainly better. If the PDN gateways in an LTE deployment are located solely in the same locations as the former GGSNS then yeah your topoly is going to look almost identical.
For those concerned about latency, the key is working with the wireless operator to find where the mobility aggregation points are and how they are connected to the Internet. More advanced applications at large scale can justify direct peering, but i don't imagine that achieves much real latency benefits over just being properly coordinated with the locations and ISPs.
Cameron ======= http://groups.google.com/group/tmoipv6beta =======
Cameron Byrne allegedly wrote on 10/10/2010 15:38 EDT:
LTE provides some latency benefits on the wireless interface, but the actual packet core architecture is very similar to GSM / UMTS.
and it's going to be a long time before Local Breakout gets noticeably deployed.
participants (8)
-
Cameron Byrne -
Holmes,David A -
Jared Geiger -
Joel Jaeggli -
Leo Woltz -
Ryan Finnesey -
Scott Brim -
Seth Mattinen