hey all, we've got a client that wants some crazy stuff, and i need either suggestions or confirmation that this is impossible/too expensive. client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite? - toby ----------------------------------------------- t@platinumsystems.net http://www.platinumsystems.net
"Cerqua, Toby" wrote:
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
Rent a U-Haul for about $39.95, put the tapes or disks in the back drive 20 miles. Even in rush hour on LSD you should make the 45 minute deadline no problem. 2.5 GB is nothing, the client could get 2.5 TB or more if they wanted that way. How's that for throughput? Latency kind of sucks though. :-) John
On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, John Kristoff wrote:
Rent a U-Haul for about $39.95, put the tapes or disks in the back drive 20 miles. Even in rush hour on LSD you should make the 45 minute deadline no problem. 2.5 GB is nothing, the client could get 2.5 TB or more if they wanted that way. How's that for throughput? Latency kind of sucks though. :-)
Motorcycle with a bag of CDRs would be a better fit for this application. A kid with a bike would cost a lot less per month then any typical data option. :)
i don't know, satellite?
Satellite (Starband, Direct TV) aren't a choice in this matter. The StarBand Internet service is currently being provided over one of two different satellites, depending on your location: Either the GE-4 satellite located at 101° west longitude (W.L.) or the Telstar 7 satellite located at 129° W.L. Speeds will often reach 500 kbps with targeted peak time speeds in excess of 150 kbps. StarBand's current upload speeds range between 40 and 60 kbps. Peak time is weekday evenings and they are down constantly. Now I know GILAT has some sort of business SAT package, but I'm not sure what it cost and what is involved with speeds. If you friend doesnt mind a 24,000 foot up and a 24,000 foot down latency then maybe he could call GILAT.
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the Chicago area,
In this 20 miles does he have Line of Sight (LOS)? A wireless protocol, Mag Grid antenna, and an .5-1.0 WATT amplifier could do the trick. But he needs to watch his DB levels so if he does use the 1.0 WATT AMP he doesn't go over the un-licensed FCC spectrum. --------------------------- Dennis Dayman dennis@thenose.net Voice 972-772-7890 FAX 972-772-3337 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ What goes up, must come down. Ask any system administrator. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------
On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Dennis Dayman wrote:
In this 20 miles does he have Line of Sight (LOS)? A wireless protocol, Mag Grid antenna, and an .5-1.0 WATT amplifier could do the trick. But he needs to watch his DB levels so if he does use the 1.0 WATT AMP he doesn't go over the un-licensed FCC spectrum.
You're not going to do a high bandwidth link 20 miles in ISM with a permitted EIRP (I think 4watts). That doesn't seem to stop a lot of people from putting a 20+db gain antenna on a 1watt input for this stuff, but 50 watts EIRP isn't anywhere near legal.
On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 12:53:08PM -0400, Greg Maxwell wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Dennis Dayman wrote:
In this 20 miles does he have Line of Sight (LOS)? A wireless protocol, Mag Grid antenna, and an .5-1.0 WATT amplifier could do the trick. But he needs to watch his DB levels so if he does use the 1.0 WATT AMP he doesn't go over the un-licensed FCC spectrum.
You're not going to do a high bandwidth link 20 miles in ISM with a permitted EIRP (I think 4watts).
That doesn't seem to stop a lot of people from putting a 20+db gain antenna on a 1watt input for this stuff, but 50 watts EIRP isn't anywhere near legal.
I beg to differ, at my last employer we used BreezeCom 802.11b equipment for links around 20-25 miles using 24 dbi grid mesh antennas, two antennas on each end, approximately 150-200 feet in the air (usually on water towers, or grain elevators, fun climbing when I wanted out of the office..) all within legal limits. (The sheriff's dept claimed we were causing interference and had their RF engineer come check out all of the equipment near theirs, calculated output power, etc, it turned out to be something else) Of course, this is 802.11b, 11mbit claimed, 6mbit real under perfect conditions, I prefer the 5.2/5.8ghz band myself seeing how my cordless phone, X-10, and everyone else is now marketing their merchandise in the 'totally unused 2.4ghz unlicensed band' Matthew S. Hallacy
if you have line of sight you can look into microwave equipment. the spectrum(18,23,38 ghz) is generally liscensed so there are regulatory hurdles to jump through unless you're down in the 5725-5825mhz unliscensed band... These days this mostly makes sense if there's no physical infrastructure in place. take a look at: http://www.mmwaves.com/ for radio's for that sort of thing. joelja On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Cerqua, Toby wrote:
hey all,
we've got a client that wants some crazy stuff, and i need either suggestions or confirmation that this is impossible/too expensive.
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
- toby ----------------------------------------------- t@platinumsystems.net http://www.platinumsystems.net
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joel Jaeggli joelja@darkwing.uoregon.edu Academic User Services consult@gladstone.uoregon.edu PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E -------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of arms. Karl Marx -- Introduction to the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of the right, 1843.
http://www.ydi.com Curtis On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Joel Jaeggli wrote:
if you have line of sight you can look into microwave equipment. the spectrum(18,23,38 ghz) is generally liscensed so there are regulatory hurdles to jump through unless you're down in the 5725-5825mhz unliscensed band...
These days this mostly makes sense if there's no physical infrastructure in place.
take a look at:
for radio's for that sort of thing.
joelja
On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Cerqua, Toby wrote:
hey all,
we've got a client that wants some crazy stuff, and i need either suggestions or confirmation that this is impossible/too expensive.
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
- toby ----------------------------------------------- t@platinumsystems.net http://www.platinumsystems.net
-- ------------------------------------------------------------ Curtis Maurand System Administrator lamere.net Powered by Prexar http://www.lamere.net mailto:curtis@lamere.net Linux, OS/2, Windows (any flavor) http://www.prexar.com Cisco, OpenRoute, Lucent MySQL, SQL Server, PHP, Perl ------------------------------------------------------------
If you've got doubts about the distance, have a look at this network. The long haul links use Tsunami equipment. There's all sorts of stats and whatnot on the site as well, correlated with weather data, etc. http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/topo.html The main site is: http://hpwren.ucsd.edu/ The long-haul links go up to 45mb/s, and while I can't quite find it, I believe there may be a few 155mb/s links. Charles | Charles Sprickman | Internet Channel | INCH System Administration Team | (212)243-5200 | spork@inch.com | access@inch.com On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Joel Jaeggli wrote:
if you have line of sight you can look into microwave equipment. the spectrum(18,23,38 ghz) is generally liscensed so there are regulatory hurdles to jump through unless you're down in the 5725-5825mhz unliscensed band...
These days this mostly makes sense if there's no physical infrastructure in place.
take a look at:
for radio's for that sort of thing.
joelja
On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Cerqua, Toby wrote:
hey all,
we've got a client that wants some crazy stuff, and i need either suggestions or confirmation that this is impossible/too expensive.
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
- toby ----------------------------------------------- t@platinumsystems.net http://www.platinumsystems.net
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joel Jaeggli joelja@darkwing.uoregon.edu Academic User Services consult@gladstone.uoregon.edu PGP Key Fingerprint: 1DE9 8FCA 51FB 4195 B42A 9C32 A30D 121E -------------------------------------------------------------------------- It is clear that the arm of criticism cannot replace the criticism of arms. Karl Marx -- Introduction to the critique of Hegel's Philosophy of the right, 1843.
On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 11:01:54AM -0500, Cerqua, Toby wrote:
hey all,
we've got a client that wants some crazy stuff, and i need either suggestions or confirmation that this is impossible/too expensive.
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
Have he taken a look at RFC 1149? BTW, since I haven't posted in a while, I might as well get the most out of this one -- kudos to the networking wizards who posted yesterday that didn't know the difference between 192.0.0.0/16 and 192.0.0.0/8. I was especially amused with the guy who thought it had something to do with RFC 1918. --Adam
On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 11:01:54AM -0500, Cerqua, Toby wrote:
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
802.11a might do what you need. Not sure if it has been standardized yet, but if not there are a number of proprietary implementations in the same speed range. It promises 50Mbps with similar properties to 802.11b. 20 miles is going to be a long throw, but not outside the range of possibilities if you have line of site and good rooftop acesss. You will need some big antennas though. A site in the middle making it 2 10 meg shots would be ideal. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Leo Bicknell wrote:
802.11a might do what you need. Not sure if it has been standardized yet, but if not there are a number of proprietary implementations in the same speed range. It promises 50Mbps with similar properties to 802.11b.
20 miles is going to be a long throw, but not outside the range of possibilities if you have line of site and good rooftop acesss. You will need some big antennas though. A site in the middle making it 2 10 meg shots would be ideal.
FCC Part 15.247 limits EIRP. You can't legally put out enough power in the unlicenced bands.
On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 12:57:19PM -0400, Greg Maxwell wrote:
FCC Part 15.247 limits EIRP. You can't legally put out enough power in the unlicenced bands.
Sure you can, you get more power with more directional antennas. Here's a company that will sell you everything you need: http://wavewireless.com They can get 25 miles. Using a 36db Yagi you can build the same thing yourself, as many have done. You do have to back off the transmitter slightly to stay within FCC limits, but 20+ miles 802.11b is easily done within FCC limits. I cannot speak to 802.11a, as I know nothing about how it works, or the frequences and power involved. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Leo Bicknell wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 12:57:19PM -0400, Greg Maxwell wrote:
FCC Part 15.247 limits EIRP. You can't legally put out enough power in the unlicenced bands.
Sure you can, you get more power with more directional antennas.
Here's a company that will sell you everything you need:
They can get 25 miles. Using a 36db Yagi you can build the same thing yourself, as many have done. You do have to back off the transmitter slightly to stay within FCC limits, but 20+ miles 802.11b is easily done within FCC limits.
I cannot speak to 802.11a, as I know nothing about how it works, or the frequences and power involved.
Directional antenns increase effective power output. FCC has limits not only on transmitter power but also EIRP. A 36dBi with 100mw input will yeald an EIRP of over 220 watts, well above the limit of sanity and the law for EIRP of unlicenced equipment in the ISM band. You'd have to back off to less then 2mw to remain in the legal limits. I just ran some quick numbers, and a unlicenced 20mile link like that would be possible, but I wouldn't sell it.: 1.75mw -> 36dBi antenna -> freespace -> 36dBi antenna -> reciever + mis losses, has an EIRP of about 3.9 watts (legal). You'd have about 15db of link margin, and that's much too little for a reliable link IMO.
On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 01:28:46PM -0400, Greg Maxwell wrote:
I just ran some quick numbers, and a unlicenced 20mile link like that would be possible, but I wouldn't sell it.:
1.75mw -> 36dBi antenna -> freespace -> 36dBi antenna -> reciever + mis losses, has an EIRP of about 3.9 watts (legal).
You'd have about 15db of link margin, and that's much too little for a reliable link IMO.
That's why I suggested two 10 mile links. :-) There are a large number of people in the 10-14 mile range with reliable links, and very few people pushing further. That said, some guy in NZ got around 35 miles as I recall using off the shelf parts. It no doubt exceeded FCC regs though, but that's not an issue for him. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
I believe there are limitations on antenna gain and total EIRP in those frequency bands which would make it difficult - if not impossible - to get any kind of link budget over that distance. I could be wrong, but that's my reading of 47 CFR Part 247(I think that's the correct citation). David Leonard ShaysNet On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Leo Bicknell wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 11:01:54AM -0500, Cerqua, Toby wrote:
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
802.11a might do what you need. Not sure if it has been standardized yet, but if not there are a number of proprietary implementations in the same speed range. It promises 50Mbps with similar properties to 802.11b.
20 miles is going to be a long throw, but not outside the range of possibilities if you have line of site and good rooftop acesss. You will need some big antennas though. A site in the middle making it 2 10 meg shots would be ideal.
-- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
At 12:51 PM -0400 16/08/2001, Leo Bicknell wrote:
On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 at 11:01:54AM -0500, Cerqua, Toby wrote:
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
802.11a might do what you need. Not sure if it has been standardized yet, but if not there are a number of proprietary implementations in the same speed range. It promises 50Mbps with similar properties to 802.11b.
i read somewhere 802.11a was going to be like 50ft distance. you'll need lots of wireless bridges. -craig
20 miles is going to be a long throw, but not outside the range of possibilities if you have line of site and good rooftop acesss. You will need some big antennas though. A site in the middle making it 2 10 meg shots would be ideal.
-- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
If wireless is too expensive or not possible due to the technology/laws, you might think about renting dark fiber from a non-RBOC type company. Also there is companies like Cogent who will sell you a 100Mb connection for $1000/month. In a large metropolitan area like Chicago, you should be able to pay much less than the monthly cost of a T3. YMMV. --- Steve Rude steve@rudedogg.com On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Cerqua, Toby wrote:
hey all,
we've got a client that wants some crazy stuff, and i need either suggestions or confirmation that this is impossible/too expensive.
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
- toby ----------------------------------------------- t@platinumsystems.net http://www.platinumsystems.net
If your client is looking for radio as a way to pay an up-front capital cost and avoid the monthly recurring cost to and dependence on a LEC, there are terrestial radio products that could do the job. Satellite, of course, is tremendously more expensive than a leased line at those speeds and does have the TCP windowing headache from latency, though it can certainly be made to work. As for 802.11a, the 5GHz unlicensed window it will use hasn't opened up yet (AFAIK - may be outdated info), and there are no commercial products available. Even if they were, the 5Gig spectrum doesn't travel as well as 2.4 at similar power, and last I heard they weren't expecting to bump up the power limits. Even if they are, the effective rate probably won't be above 30Gbps. I don't know of any technologies that operate in ISM or other unlicensed spectrum that would meet your requirements. Several companies have been building terrestrial links like you would need for years. Check out Harris: http://www.harris.com. The military loves them. Last I checked, their products will do DS3 clear channel at >20 miles with modest ground clearance; they're probably up to OC-3 by now. Being tailored to the Military, as you can imagine, they're very robust, but expensive. You also have some licensing hoops to jump through, but the vendor can help. All in all, a couple hundred $k one time expense isn't bad. - Jeb -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Cerqua, Toby Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 12:02 PM To: 'nanog@merit.edu' Subject: wanted: wireless magic tricks hey all, we've got a client that wants some crazy stuff, and i need either suggestions or confirmation that this is impossible/too expensive. client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite? - toby ----------------------------------------------- t@platinumsystems.net http://www.platinumsystems.net
On Thu, 16 Aug 2001, Cerqua, Toby wrote:
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
We use satellite here and get it over 45Mb/s easy (although that is across a lot of customers rather than between just 2 hosts). However considering leased lines are cheaper in this part of the world than satellite I can't imagine it's a cheap option in the central US. By the time you add the price of the circuit to the uplink site, and the rental of 45Mb/s worth of carrier ( just how cheap do you think enough carrier space for 4-45 (choose your compression) TV channels to everywhere in North America is? ) and other costs ( mosts local govts don't just let you chuck up 4M sat dishes without a permit) I can't image satellite is an option. Look at some of the other options people have outlined here (especially moving the information via truck/motorbike/helo) and go back to the client and discuss what they really want to do. -- Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work: simon.lyall@ihug.co.nz Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: simon@darkmere.gen.nz ihug, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz
It operates in the licensed spectrum, but this should be pretty close to what you are looking to do. http://www.wire-less-inc.com/products/wavenet-trans.html Greg U At 11:01 AM 8/16/2001, Cerqua, Toby wrote:
hey all,
we've got a client that wants some crazy stuff, and i need either suggestions or confirmation that this is impossible/too expensive.
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
- toby ----------------------------------------------- t@platinumsystems.net http://www.platinumsystems.net
Aloha Toby You need to contact: marlon_schafer@wpcs.com wpcs@odessaoffice.com Marlon can put you in touch with the people that have done this kind of stuff and he can get the equipment as well. Good luck, Michael Painter A/V Engineering of Hawaii ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cerqua, Toby" <toby@platinumsystems.net> To: <nanog@merit.edu> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 6:01 AM Subject: wanted: wireless magic tricks
hey all,
we've got a client that wants some crazy stuff, and i need either suggestions or confirmation that this is impossible/too expensive.
client needs 45Mbps pushed over 20 miles... and he wants it wireless. the kicker is that they don't want a T3 because it is "too expensive" and it would take too long to get installed. it doesn't need to be constant, but he wants to move of 2.5GB within 45 minutes. this is in the chicago area, if that helps any. so, i don't know, satellite?
- toby ----------------------------------------------- t@platinumsystems.net http://www.platinumsystems.net
participants (17)
-
Adam McKenna -
Cerqua, Toby -
Charles Sprickman -
Craig A. Haney -
Curtis Maurand -
Dennis Dayman -
Greg Maxwell -
Gregory Urban -
Jeb R. Linton -
Joel Jaeggli -
John Kristoff -
Leo Bicknell -
M. David Leonard -
Matthew S . Hallacy -
Michael Painter -
Simon Lyall -
Steve Rude