I just read this after clearing out old NANOG mail... Jon Lewis <jlewis@inorganic5.fdt.net> writes:
The Atlanta NAP (www.atlanta-nap.net run by Nathan Stratton) is down, probably for good. We're a customer (luckily a multihomed one!), and the word is WORLDCOM pulled all their circuits due to debts. So all the netrail.net mailing lists and stuff will be down too.
8 mae-east2-nap.Washington.mci.net (204.70.1.222) 107.596 ms 195.051 ms 90.187 ms 9 mae-east.netrail.net (192.41.177.228) 97.759 ms 128.468 ms 108.682 ms 10 mae-east.netrail.net (192.41.177.228) 121.353 ms !H 92.724 ms !H 92.384 ms !H 23 144.228.10.42 (144.228.10.42) 178.501 ms 181.052 ms * 24 mae-east.netrail.net (192.41.177.228) 204.067 ms 206.366 ms * 25 mae-east.netrail.net (192.41.177.228) 208.59 ms !H 197.928 ms !H 207.262 ms !H You know, although I do feel bad for Netrail and its customers, I did read this with a keen appreciation for the irony, given Mr Stratton's public comments about how badly BBN's power system was misdesigned for allowing them to take multi-hour outages, particularly in light of the fact that the outage in question was beyond BBN's immediate ability to fix, and not BBN's fault. It didn't have the personal tastiness of Mr Bass's unfortunate encounter with bad weather a year or so ago, but frankly, I can't help but engage in schadenfreude anyway. I also wonder how the millions of GRFs and the billions of other high-tech expensive pieces of equipment in Netrail's large network Mr Stratton often commented upon are coping right now. One final extract, from <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970716143738.3017A-100000@netrail.net> posted to NANOG during the recent backhoe season: "Ya, we are going to kill worldcom for this [outage caused by a fibre-cut]". No tickee, no complainee? The moral of this story: bad things happen to everyone. But when it happens to braggarts who seem to specialize in doing things better than people who are trying their best, it's terribly, terribly cool. --:) Take note, please, Mr Fleming (inventor and super genius). Sean.
On 25 Aug 1997, Sean M. Doran wrote:
I just read this after clearing out old NANOG mail...
Jon Lewis <jlewis@inorganic5.fdt.net> writes:
The Atlanta NAP (www.atlanta-nap.net run by Nathan Stratton) is down, probably for good. We're a customer (luckily a multihomed one!), and the word is WORLDCOM pulled all their circuits due to debts. So all the netrail.net mailing lists and stuff will be down too.
Vary much not correct. All of our WORLDCOM circuits have been paid, and never were late. Worldcom terminated our service because NetRail refused to pay over 300K in circuits that NetRail never ordered. We have paid them this amount to get our network back up.
You know, although I do feel bad for Netrail and its customers, I did read this with a keen appreciation for the irony, given Mr Stratton's public comments about how badly BBN's power system was misdesigned for allowing them to take multi-hour outages, particularly in light of the fact that the outage in question was beyond BBN's immediate ability to fix, and not BBN's fault.
Ok, how much larger is BBN compared to NetRail??? NetRail was started by one guy with a credit card. I have built NetRail, not just a transit free network, but I have built the colos, and even some hardware. I have done all this with VARY little money. I now have funding, and you WILL see is grow. I admit NetRail should have paid the disputed 300K worldcom bill. My investors refused to pay it. I not have new investors with far more money.
It didn't have the personal tastiness of Mr Bass's unfortunate encounter with bad weather a year or so ago, but frankly, I can't help but engage in schadenfreude anyway.
I also wonder how the millions of GRFs and the billions of other high-tech expensive pieces of equipment in Netrail's large network Mr Stratton often commented upon are coping right now.
They are up and running fine.
One final extract, from <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970716143738.3017A-100000@netrail.net> posted to NANOG during the recent backhoe season: "Ya, we are going to kill worldcom for this [outage caused by a fibre-cut]". No tickee, no complainee?
The moral of this story: bad things happen to everyone. But when it happens to braggarts who seem to specialize in doing things better than people who are trying their best, it's terribly, terribly cool. --:)
Well Sean, you can sit back and soon eat your words. NetRail will grow, and so far we lost only 1 customer due to this outage. Why, because we provide a services that is better then most providers out there.
Take note, please, Mr Fleming (inventor and super genius).
Sean.
P.S. We have also learned not be be dependent on Worldcom. We will soon buy our DS3s from 3 fibers carriers, and not just 1. Nathan Stratton President, CTO, NetRail,Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phone (888)NetRail NetRail, Inc. Fax (404)522-1939 230 Peachtree Suite 500 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Atlanta, GA 30303 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. - Psalm 33:16
Hot Diggety! Nathan Stratton was rumored to have said...
Vary much not correct. All of our WORLDCOM circuits have been paid, and never were late. Worldcom terminated our service because NetRail refused to pay over 300K in circuits that NetRail never ordered. We have paid them this amount to get our network back up.
Why does this sound *too* familiar? :) I knew an ISP that offered co-lo facilities for Worldcom. Worldcom brought in a DS3 to it...took quite a while to install it - I should know, having worked 10 feet away from the various installers. Wasn't installed until end of August - and only because the ISP put on *serious* pressure to the MFS account exec where they would get a free month of service for every 24 hours they failed to have it installed. Believe me, out of nowhere, techs in the nice looking MFS Worldcom van showed up and pulled an all-nighter. ;-) So it was finally up. Start billing, start paying...no problems, right? *BZZZT*! Wrong-o. MFS later sent a bill where they claimed the then-not-installed DS3 was turned up and *active* around beginning of June or something to that effect, and demanded immediate repayment or they'd disable the circuit. None of this 30 days, 60 days notice process. You'd think that for a large bill, they'd want to discuss any problems with the customer? Nope. ISP called MFS back, tried to get account exec - he was *always* "unavailable", couldn't get anyone else... I think they finally got someone to answer only when they refused to pay without discussing the issue, only to get more of the same. I believe the ISP took MFS to court - not sure what the results were, I heard two different stories. And I was talking with one of the CEOs who was one of the first customers at MAE-East - he related a similiar story with MFS. So...hope this kind of terrorism doesn't strike anyone else. *grumbles about _extremely_ sneaky tactics* Wouldn't want to wish it on even my worst enemy. Don't get me wrong - the MFS tech folks are as good as anyone else, but it's just their sales and accounting departments that makes me *really* nervous. -Dan Foster Internet: dsf@frontiernet.net Disclaimers: Details may not be 100% factually correct; it's been a while since this happened.
On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Dan Foster wrote:
Hot Diggety! Nathan Stratton was rumored to have said...
Vary much not correct. All of our WORLDCOM circuits have been paid, and never were late. Worldcom terminated our service because NetRail refused to pay over 300K in circuits that NetRail never ordered. We have paid them this amount to get our network back up.
Why does this sound *too* familiar? :)
So...hope this kind of terrorism doesn't strike anyone else. *grumbles about _extremely_ sneaky tactics* Wouldn't want to wish it on even my worst enemy.
Don't get me wrong - the MFS tech folks are as good as anyone else, but it's just their sales and accounting departments that makes me *really* nervous.
-Dan Foster Internet: dsf@frontiernet.net Disclaimers: Details may not be 100% factually correct; it's been a while since this happened.
I've found that being quoted in trade magazines talking about the inadequecies and troubles you experience with UUNet can work wonders, not to mention get you countless solicitations for bandwidth from other networks, wanted or not. Joe Shaw - jshaw@insync.net NetAdmin - Insync Internet Services "Learn more, and you will never starve." - Paraphrase of Lee
On Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 09:36:40PM -0400, Dan Foster wrote:
Don't get me wrong - the MFS tech folks are as good as anyone else,
Of _course_ they are... _they_ used to work for WilTel. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth jra@baylink.com Member of the Technical Staff Unsolicited Commercial Emailers Sued The Suncoast Freenet "People propose, science studies, technology Tampa Bay, Florida conforms." -- Dr. Don Norman +1 813 790 7592
Contest Question: When and what was the last posting with new useful technical operational content on this list? Rules: You must send a copy of that posting by private email to me, not reposted to the list. I will be the sole judge of useful technical content and most recent date of posting. I will likely seek assistance. Entry will be closed 00:01 GMT on 2 September. Winner will be announced 4 September. Honor Point: Scanning the list archive is poor form. If it was really useful, you would remember it. The Prize: A tee shirt. What else? randy PS: The real prize should go to the *next* person to post useful technical content.
Nathan, you write...
Vary much not correct. All of our WORLDCOM circuits have been paid, and never were late. Worldcom terminated our service because NetRail refused &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
to pay over 300K in circuits that NetRail never ordered. We have paid ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ...
I admit NetRail should have paid the disputed 300K worldcom bill. ...
P.S. We have also learned not be be dependent on Worldcom. We will soon buy our DS3s from 3 fibers carriers, and not just 1.
So when you just admitted you SHOULD HAVE PAID the bill, but didn't want to, and you didn't order the circuits, do you really expect three fiber carriers to drop their drawers to get their business? I hate to tell you, but if you think stiffing Worldcom 300K you owed them and then trying to blame THEM for it is legitimate business practices, you need to buy a bigger clue. E
Nathan Stratton President, CTO, NetRail,Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phone (888)NetRail NetRail, Inc. Fax (404)522-1939 230 Peachtree Suite 500 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Atlanta, GA 30303 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. - Psalm 33:16
"No bible-toting fool who won't pay his bills will be in business long." - Ehud (look it up, it's in the same book.)
This is not a NANOG topic, but I felt I should respond, feal free to hit D now. On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Ehud Gavron wrote:
So when you just admitted you SHOULD HAVE PAID the bill, but didn't want to, and you didn't order the circuits, do you really expect three fiber carriers to drop their drawers to get their business?
I said I should have paid the bill because our customers should be the top priority. You then can deal with them in later. I actually did not think they would shut it off because it was disputed. If you check with the records the thing I signed with worldcom said I was paying the bills to get my network up, not because I owed the money.
I hate to tell you, but if you think stiffing Worldcom 300K you owed them and then trying to blame THEM for it is legitimate business practices, you need to buy a bigger clue.
I don't think so.
"No bible-toting fool who won't pay his bills will be in business long." - Ehud (look it up, it's in the same book.)
I have been in business for 3 years and God has blessed me a lot, but this is not a nanog topic so I will not go into that. Nathan Stratton President, CTO, NetRail,Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phone (888)NetRail NetRail, Inc. Fax (404)522-1939 230 Peachtree Suite 500 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Atlanta, GA 30303 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. - Psalm 33:16
I'll ignore Nathan's defense because IMHO it has no place on this list, and get straight to the operational issues. On Aug 25, Nathan Stratton <nathan@netrail.net> wrote:
P.S. We have also learned not be be dependent on Worldcom. We will soon buy our DS3s from 3 fibers carriers, and not just 1.
I'd assume that everybody is currently either already doing this or planning to do it RSN. How can one tell, however, whether their carrier is using their own fiber or leasing Worldcom's? Or even if Worldcom has been leasing /theirs/, thus putting you right back on the same physical line? I know this is a pretty common topic of discussion among the smaller telcos, but AFAIK there's no easy solution. ********************************************************* J.D. Falk voice: +1-415-482-2840 Supervisor, Network Operations fax: +1-415-482-2844 PRIORI NETWORKS, INC. http://www.priori.net "The People You Know. The People You Trust." *********************************************************
J.D. Falk sez:
I'd assume that everybody is currently either already doing this or planning to do it RSN. How can one tell, however, whether their carrier is using their own fiber or leasing Worldcom's? Or even if Worldcom has been leasing /theirs/, thus putting you right back on the same physical line?
Goood questions... Before dropping money on table, demand physical ROW data. You better also get "prior approval" on rerouting also. This will a real snakepit. Like truckers in a convoy, fibers migrate toward the available easements -- rail, river and pileline right of way. Politically, they don't want you to KNOW when it's not their fiber but a sublet, or where it is. [Vestiges of Old Bell Paranoia -- You are not worth of knowing how it works; just pay the bill.] And the biggest hassle may be the last mile. Do all your feeds enter on the same side of the building? [I can see it now.. "License Backhoes, not Guns..."] -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, J.D. Falk wrote:
P.S. We have also learned not be be dependent on Worldcom. We will soon buy our DS3s from 3 fibers carriers, and not just 1.
I'd assume that everybody is currently either already doing this or planning to do it RSN. How can one tell, however, whether their carrier is using their own fiber or leasing Worldcom's? Or even if Worldcom has been leasing /theirs/, thus putting you right back on the same physical line?
You get the DLRs (Design Layout Records) and fiber maps from your fiber carriers. You then check them all out to make sure they are on diverse fiber. You also want to check the DLRs every few months to make sure they have not been changed.
I know this is a pretty common topic of discussion among the smaller telcos, but AFAIK there's no easy solution.
No, not a easy solution, but it can be done. Nathan Stratton President, CTO, NetRail,Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Phone (888)NetRail NetRail, Inc. Fax (404)522-1939 230 Peachtree Suite 500 WWW http://www.netrail.net/ Atlanta, GA 30303 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength. - Psalm 33:16
On Tuesday, the 26th of August, J.D. was saying:
I'll ignore Nathan's defense because IMHO it has no place on this list, and get straight to the operational issues.
I'd assume that everybody is currently either already doing his or planning to do it RSN. How can one tell, however, whether their carrier is using their own fiber or leasing Worldcom's? Or even if Worldcom has been leasing /theirs/, thus putting you right back on the same physical line?
Or putting their fiber right next to Worldcom's on the same physical route... My $0.02... ************************************************************** Timothy Brown <tim@priori.net> voice: +1.650.482.2840 Network Operations fax: +1.650.482.2844 PRIORI NETWORKS, INC. NOC: +1.888.ISPS.NOC "The People You Know. The People You Trust." **************************************************************
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, J.D. Falk wrote:
I'd assume that everybody is currently either already doing this or planning to do it RSN. How can one tell, however, whether their carrier is using their own fiber or leasing Worldcom's? Or even if Worldcom has been leasing /theirs/, thus putting you right back on the same physical line?
It's one of the questions we ask prior to purchasing service. Just has MFS install a new ring and put in physically seperate paths to one of our facilities for just that reason. We made sure the paths were physically seperate when they did the install. We waited for them to bring fiber up the corridor prior to ordering service from them. Personally, I'd make sure it was in the contract that service was being provided on physically seperate media than the original carrier for a subsequent carrier, with redundant paths, etc. If it's a new business, I'd make carrier facilties part of the site survey. SONNET from multiple wirelines is good until you forget something like multiple paths to the facility, then Joe Backhoe Operator (JBO) will pick that single point of failure every darned time.
I know this is a pretty common topic of discussion among the smaller telcos, but AFAIK there's no easy solution.
Contracts and lawgeeks. Paul ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul D. Robertson gatekeeper@gannett.com
Now here is a question, what is WorldComm's Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) for building facilities of OC-48 or larger. Since obviously they plan to distribute from plants like that, do they dual paths or something more elaborate [i.e. multiple collapsed rings, etc]. -Deepak. On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, Paul D. Robertson wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 1997, J.D. Falk wrote:
I'd assume that everybody is currently either already doing this or planning to do it RSN. How can one tell, however, whether their carrier is using their own fiber or leasing Worldcom's? Or even if Worldcom has been leasing /theirs/, thus putting you right back on the same physical line?
It's one of the questions we ask prior to purchasing service. Just has MFS install a new ring and put in physically seperate paths to one of our facilities for just that reason. We made sure the paths were physically seperate when they did the install. We waited for them to bring fiber up the corridor prior to ordering service from them. Personally, I'd make sure it was in the contract that service was being provided on physically seperate media than the original carrier for a subsequent carrier, with redundant paths, etc. If it's a new business, I'd make carrier facilties part of the site survey. SONNET from multiple wirelines is good until you forget something like multiple paths to the facility, then Joe Backhoe Operator (JBO) will pick that single point of failure every darned time.
I know this is a pretty common topic of discussion among the smaller telcos, but AFAIK there's no easy solution.
Contracts and lawgeeks.
Paul ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul D. Robertson gatekeeper@gannett.com
On 25 Aug 1997, Sean M. Doran wrote:
I just read this after clearing out old NANOG mail...
Jon Lewis <jlewis@inorganic5.fdt.net> writes:
The Atlanta NAP (www.atlanta-nap.net run by Nathan Stratton) is down, probably for good. We're a customer (luckily a multihomed one!), and the word is WORLDCOM pulled all their circuits due to debts. So all the netrail.net mailing lists and stuff will be down too.
Actually, I didn't write that...I just forwarded it to the list for someone else. The closest FDT ever got to being a Netrail customer was my emailing Nathan and getting some quotes for a frame connection. That's about the extent of my contact with Netrail. The actual author of the above was Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@pobox.com>. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Jon Lewis <jlewis@fdt.net> | Unsolicited commercial e-mail will Network Administrator | be proof-read for $199/message. Florida Digital Turnpike | ______http://inorganic5.fdt.net/~jlewis/pgp for PGP public key____
participants (13)
-
Dan Foster -
Deepak Jain -
Ehud Gavron -
J.D. Falk -
Jay R. Ashworth -
Joe Shaw -
Jon Lewis -
Nathan Stratton -
Paul D. Robertson -
Randy Bush -
Sean M. Doran -
Timothy Brown -
wb8foz