UPS and generator interaction?
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist? Right now we've got a APC Symmetra UPS at 12kva, with no generator. The UPS keeps us running for about 45 minutes, which just isn't enough time. I called APC, but they didn't seem to have any type of automatic solution. Their method is to hook it up to a switch, and manually change the feed to the UPS from the building power to the generator power and back, but it sure would be nice to have something more automated (to save me from running like a madman when the UPS page wakes me up at 4am). I'd be very grateful to hear of any solutions that you guys have come up with in this arena. Also, any recommendations for generators? I'm not looking for something huge, just something that can be mounted on a roof. If I have to pour diesel into it every couple hours, that's fine too. Thanks in advance, Brian
Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist?
Find somebody with Internet Access and a "browser--go to Google.com, enter "generator backup ups" in the box. Find things like: "http://www.standbygeneratorsystems.com/standbyportable_ad/" I don;t know anything about that company--personally I'd look to see if Teledyne Inet was still in business. Telephone companies and such have been doing that for several years now. -- Requiescas in pace o email
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Yo Brian! On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr. wrote:
Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist?
Find somebody with Internet Access and a "browser--go to Google.com, enter "generator backup ups" in the box.
Otherwise stroll down to Home Depot. My HD sells a full kit, includeing generator. Then hire an electrician to install it since the code requirements are not obvious. RGDS GARY - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gary E. Miller Rellim 20340 Empire Blvd, Suite E-3, Bend, OR 97701 gem@rellim.com Tel:+1(541)382-8588 Fax: +1(541)382-8676 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAaLr+8KZibdeR3qURAn2YAJ4/JP2Bix59XCBYmPA4KZMeNxca+ACfTVkq x64tzuQcW1LKy+pLAq+161Q= =gZhe -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
On Monday 29 March 2004 01:26 pm, Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist?
I think you are looking at it wrong, you need an Automatic Transfer Switch. It connects to both commercial power and your generator, and provides a feed into your panels. Your UPS's sit in front of the ATS, and provide clean power. If/When you loose commercial power, the ATS will detect this and power on the generator, after a configurable amount of time it will switch to generator power, until commercial power comes back and is stable for X amount of time. Hope that helps, -Patrick -- Patrick Muldoon Network/Software Engineer INOC (http://www.inoc.net) PGPKEY (http://www.inoc.net/~doon) Key ID: 0x370D752C "Bear left." "Right, Frog!" - The Muppet Movie
Patrick Muldoon wrote:
On Monday 29 March 2004 01:26 pm, Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist?
I think you are looking at it wrong, you need an Automatic Transfer Switch. It connects to both commercial power and your generator, and provides a feed into your panels. Your UPS's sit in front of the ATS, and provide clean power. If/When you loose commercial power, the ATS will detect this and power on the generator, after a configurable amount of time it will switch to generator power, until commercial power comes back and is stable for X amount of time.
We are talking about some significant energy levels here, and this is NOT a DIY project. If the switch is hooked up wrong, you can (attempt) to power up your part of the grid during a failure, and kill people in the attempt. -- Requiescas in pace o email
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr. wrote:
On Monday 29 March 2004 01:26 pm, Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist?
I think you are looking at it wrong, you need an Automatic Transfer Switch. It connects to both commercial power and your generator, and provides a feed into your panels. Your UPS's sit in front of the ATS, and provide clean power. If/When you loose commercial power, the ATS will detect this and power on the generator, after a configurable amount of time it will switch to generator power, until commercial power comes back and is stable for X amount of time.
We are talking about some significant energy levels here, and this is NOT a DIY project. If the switch is hooked up wrong, you can (attempt) to power up your part of the grid during a failure, and kill people in the attempt.
Agreed. You should have an electrician install the automatic transfer switch along with the UPS. If you are going to install a permanent generator you will need to get permits anyway, which will require a licensed electrican. Talk to your UPS vendor for electrical contractor recommendations in your area. BTW, for safety and protection of your equipment, large automatic transfer switches sense voltage, frequency, and phase when switching between generator and utility power. Mike. +----------------- H U R R I C A N E - E L E C T R I C -----------------+ | Mike Leber Direct Internet Connections Voice 510 580 4100 | | Hurricane Electric Web Hosting Colocation Fax 510 580 4151 | | mleber@he.net http://www.he.net | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist?
What Patrick said. But, on a minor note that probably won't affect your Symmetra but I'm posting in case anyone else here can shed light on.... we had a power event this AM. The transfer switch did it's magic and all was good... Except for two new APC1400's- they failed once the batteries drained. I triple-checked that they were on the right panel, played with sensitivity, even tried daisy-chaining one off a good working 2200. Nothing I did would convince the two 1400s they had power. Once the house power was restored they came back to life and look normal. I later learned that two of our colo customers with APC1400s had the same problem :( Other models (even a couple non-essential lower-end, dumb APC 450s and 650s) didn't blink at the generator power. Mike
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Mike Lewinski wrote:
But, on a minor note that probably won't affect your Symmetra but I'm posting in case anyone else here can shed light on.... we had a power event this AM. The transfer switch did it's magic and all was good... Except for two new APC1400's- they failed once the batteries drained. I triple-checked that they were on the right panel, played with sensitivity, even tried daisy-chaining one off a good working 2200. Nothing I did would convince the two 1400s they had power. Once the house power was restored they came back to life and look normal. I later learned that two of our colo customers with APC1400s had the same problem :( Other models (even a couple non-essential lower-end, dumb APC 450s and 650s) didn't blink at the generator power.
Check generator frequency. If it has a mechanical governor, you may need to replace it with electronic. -- Jay Hennigan - CCIE #7880 - Network Administration - jay@west.net WestNet: Connecting you to the planet. 805 884-6323 WB6RDV NetLojix Communications, Inc. - http://www.netlojix.com/
At 01:53 PM 3/29/2004, Mike Lewinski wrote:
Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist?
What Patrick said.
An additional note: some of the small to mid-sized propane/natural gas units come as packaged systems with a generator and transfer switch. These can be a good value and work well too. Do some shopping.
But, on a minor note that probably won't affect your Symmetra but I'm posting in case anyone else here can shed light on.... we had a power event this AM. The transfer switch did it's magic and all was good... Except for two new APC1400's- they failed once the batteries drained. I triple-checked that they were on the right panel, played with sensitivity, even tried daisy-chaining one off a good working 2200. Nothing I did would convince the two 1400s they had power. Once the house power was restored they came back to life and look normal. I later learned that two of our colo customers with APC1400s had the same problem :( Other models (even a couple non-essential lower-end, dumb APC 450s and 650s) didn't blink at the generator power.
The Winco 8KW unit I use to protect my home is designed to output 62.5Hz when unloaded, so that motor starts (well, furnace) don't pull it below 60Hz. Devices all seem quite happy with this setup. We use a bunch of APC SmartUPS units because these have sensitivity adjustments. We need to knock them back to the medium sensitivity or they freak out with the 62Hz, and keep switching on and off battery. We find the lower-end units (BackUps) won't work at all, since they just freak.
Previously, Daniel Senie (dts@senie.com) wrote:
An additional note: some of the small to mid-sized propane/natural gas units come as packaged systems with a generator and transfer switch. These can be a good value and work well too. Do some shopping.
The obvious caveat being that natural gas is one of those fuel sources often cut by public safety officials depending on circumstances. -- Douglas A. Dever dever@snoopy.net
At 02:41 PM 3/29/2004, Doug Dever wrote:
Previously, Daniel Senie (dts@senie.com) wrote:
An additional note: some of the small to mid-sized propane/natural gas units come as packaged systems with a generator and transfer switch. These can be a good value and work well too. Do some shopping.
The obvious caveat being that natural gas is one of those fuel sources often cut by public safety officials depending on circumstances.
I keep sufficient propane on-site for a week of operation of my genset at home. Certainly there are concerns with using street gas, but these can be overcome. Gas does have significant advantages over diesel in terms of fuel not getting contaminated. For smaller sites especially, it makes a lot of sense. Anyone approaching the question of getting a generator for a site needs to weigh a lot of factors. What's right for your site might not be the same as for someone else. As for gas being cut by public safety, that can be a good thing. From what I read, #7 WTC may well have stayed up had it not been for the diesel stored there. If they'd been running from street gas, they'd have lost power, but maybe not lost the building. Sometimes it's a good thing to be able to interrupt the fuel source to a building that's on fire or threatened by fire.
Doug Dever wrote:
Previously, Daniel Senie (dts@senie.com) wrote:
An additional note: some of the small to mid-sized propane/natural gas units come as packaged systems with a generator and transfer switch. These can be a good value and work well too. Do some shopping.
The obvious caveat being that natural gas is one of those fuel sources often cut by public safety officials depending on circumstances.
Some folk by propane or LPG in bottles that are not immediately dependent on PS folk. -- Requiescas in pace o email
On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Mike Lewinski wrote:
Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist?
What Patrick said.
But, on a minor note that probably won't affect your Symmetra but I'm posting in case anyone else here can shed light on.... we had a power event this AM. The transfer switch did it's magic and all was good... Except for two new APC1400's- they failed once the batteries drained. I triple-checked that they were on the right panel, played with sensitivity, even tried daisy-chaining one off a good working 2200. Nothing I did would convince the two 1400s they had power. Once the house power was restored they came back to life and look normal. I later learned that two of our colo customers with APC1400s had the same problem :( Other models (even a couple non-essential lower-end, dumb APC 450s and 650s) didn't blink at the generator power.
It's possible that the generatar is running to fast or slow and the frequency is out of range for the ups... I had this happen in Ghana, generator was producing 47.5hz, opened the throttle and everything was fine.
Mike
-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Joel Jaeggli Unix Consulting joelja@darkwing.uoregon.edu GPG Key Fingerprint: 5C6E 0104 BAF0 40B0 5BD3 C38B F000 35AB B67F 56B2
Brian, The way the generators usually are set up is an transfer switch at the input of the UPS. When commercial power is lost the ATS signals the Genset to start and once the input voltage stablizes the UPS shuts down. This scenario assumes the use of a line interactive UPS which includes the UPS you describe. In the case of a online the UPS "sees" that line power has been restored. When power is restored the ATS switches back to commercial power and signals the generator to shut down. The ATS usually "exercises" the generator as well on a set schedule as well. My advice is to contact a local electrician who specializes in generator installations as local codes define what you are allowed to do. BTW APC has an environmental monitor card with relay outputs which can be used to start a compatible generator. once again you need to talk to your local electrician. Scott C. McGrath On Mon, 29 Mar 2004, Brian (nanog-list) wrote:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist?
Right now we've got a APC Symmetra UPS at 12kva, with no generator. The UPS keeps us running for about 45 minutes, which just isn't enough time. I called APC, but they didn't seem to have any type of automatic solution. Their method is to hook it up to a switch, and manually change the feed to the UPS from the building power to the generator power and back, but it sure would be nice to have something more automated (to save me from running like a madman when the UPS page wakes me up at 4am).
I'd be very grateful to hear of any solutions that you guys have come up with in this arena. Also, any recommendations for generators? I'm not looking for something huge, just something that can be mounted on a roof. If I have to pour diesel into it every couple hours, that's fine too.
Thanks in advance, Brian
Speaking on Deep Background, the Press Secretary whispered:
Does anyone know of a way to get a UPS to trigger a generator to start, and to switch over to the generator power automatically or does this type of thing just not exist?
The UPS will have nothing to do with this. The generator would be connected to an Automatic Transfer Switch (really an A.T.Relay..) that would: a) Wait from several seconds up to a minute, to avoid false starts. b) Start the generator c) Transfer the load after the generator is going. If the UPS is plugged into a generator-fed outlet, it then goes back to charge. I *have* seen the issue others mentioned - where the USP would not recognize generator power. It was SmartUPS's and I'm still puzzled. The AC output did have some ringing[1] on the scope but it was not clear that was the cause. Note a Variac [autotransformer] would be of no help. What might would be a ferro-resonant ["Sola"] transformer. FR transformers use a big hunk of transformer iron, in effect a magnetic flywheel, to smooth out all kinds of dips, spikes and surges. But there's a heavy price for such - an unloaded 1000 watt Sola draws ~340 watts. Their efficiency is better at rated load, but they still make nice heaters. They also HUMMMMMMMM. FR's have another issue. The output voltage is not a function of input voltage[2] but *IS* a function of frequency! And they are BIG starting loads. Thus you load the generator with the FR regulator, it gulps and slows down, lowering the frequency, dropping the regulated output, the generator recovers and raises its frequency, so the voltage..... If the FR load is a fraction of the total load; it's usually not an issue. [And remember, the generator must run the HVAC unless all you want is an orderly shutdown within a few minutes..] [1] Here 'ringing' means sharp spikes in the should-be-smooth sine-wave output. [2] Within a wide range, say 105-135v in for a 120v model. But get outside of THAT, and...] -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
participants (12)
-
Brian (nanog-list) -
Daniel Senie -
David Lesher -
Doug Dever -
Gary E. Miller -
Jay Hennigan -
Joel Jaeggli -
Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr. -
Mike Leber -
Mike Lewinski -
Patrick Muldoon -
Scott McGrath