(perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers
Hi Folks, I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried. Struck me as somewhat interesting. It also struck me that folks here might have some comments. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
There’s a lot less backhoe fade with microwave. ;-) Kidding aside, I’m sure there are plenty of scenarios where microwave makes better sense than fiber especially since it’s a lot easier to clear right of way through the air. Side gig has me maintaining a satellite system. Yes that still makes sense. As part of that I have a service that monitors people applying for microwave transmitters within a few hundred miles. You’d be surprised how many links are applied for every month. -- Keith Stokes Neill Technologies
On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:56 AM, Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
Hi Folks,
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Struck me as somewhat interesting.
It also struck me that folks here might have some comments.
Miles Fidelman
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Could they be a legacy of the Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Network Telecommunications, now known under the acronym SPRINT? - Brian
On Jul 14, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Brian Kantor <Brian@ampr.org> wrote:
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Could they be a legacy of the Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Network Telecommunications, now known under the acronym SPRINT? - Brian
Not along Route 66 in Arizona. That generally parallels BNSF Railway, formerly the Santa Fe down there. Southern Pacific followed Interstate 10 much further south. ---- Andy Ringsmuth andy@newslink.com News Link – Manager Technology, Travel & Facilities 2201 Winthrop Rd., Lincoln, NE 68502-4158 (402) 475-6397 (402) 304-0083 cellular
We had a ton of point to point wireless customers at 120E Van Buren out to South Mountain. About 10 years ago there was a significant shortage of fiber outside of Phoenix. You choices were SRP and Cox for the most part and SRP at that time had a very limited fiber network. They were actually the only company that offered dark Fiber out to Chandler when that campus first got built. Robert DeVita Managing Director Mejeticks c. 469-441-8864 e. radevita@mejeticks.com ________________________________ From: 32432146260n behalf of Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 10:44 AM To: North American Network Operators' Group Subject: Re: (perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers
On Jul 14, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Brian Kantor <Brian@ampr.org> wrote:
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Could they be a legacy of the Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Network Telecommunications, now known under the acronym SPRINT? - Brian
Not along Route 66 in Arizona. That generally parallels BNSF Railway, formerly the Santa Fe down there. Southern Pacific followed Interstate 10 much further south. ---- Andy Ringsmuth andy@newslink.com News Link – Manager Technology, Travel & Facilities 2201 Winthrop Rd., Lincoln, NE 68502-4158 (402) 475-6397 (402) 304-0083 cellular
Did it follow this route? http://long-lines.net/places-routes/maps/MW6003.jpg Tim On 7/14/18 8:41 AM, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
On Jul 14, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Brian Kantor <Brian@ampr.org> wrote:
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Could they be a legacy of the Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Network Telecommunications, now known under the acronym SPRINT? - Brian
Not along Route 66 in Arizona. That generally parallels BNSF Railway, formerly the Santa Fe down there. Southern Pacific followed Interstate 10 much further south.
---- Andy Ringsmuth andy@newslink.com News Link – Manager Technology, Travel & Facilities 2201 Winthrop Rd., Lincoln, NE 68502-4158 (402) 475-6397 (402) 304-0083 cellular
Looks like it! -------- Original message --------From: Tim Pozar <pozar@lns.com> Date: 7/14/18 11:46 AM (GMT-07:00) To: Andy Ringsmuth <Andy@newslink.com>, North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: (perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers Did it follow this route? http://long-lines.net/places-routes/maps/MW6003.jpg Tim On 7/14/18 8:41 AM, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
On Jul 14, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Brian Kantor <Brian@ampr.org> wrote:
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Could they be a legacy of the Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Network Telecommunications, now known under the acronym SPRINT? - Brian
Not along Route 66 in Arizona. That generally parallels BNSF Railway, formerly the Santa Fe down there. Southern Pacific followed Interstate 10 much further south.
---- Andy Ringsmuth andy@newslink.com News Link – Manager Technology, Travel & Facilities 2201 Winthrop Rd., Lincoln, NE 68502-4158 (402) 475-6397 (402) 304-0083 cellular
Most of these horns are for 6GHz. I have had friends that have "appropriated" some of them by adding a waveguide to N adapter and use them for the 5.8GHz ISM band with some minor aiming. Kick ass antenna gain. Tim On 7/14/18 4:37 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Looks like it!
-------- Original message -------- From: Tim Pozar <pozar@lns.com> Date: 7/14/18 11:46 AM (GMT-07:00) To: Andy Ringsmuth <Andy@newslink.com>, North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: (perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers
Did it follow this route?
http://long-lines.net/places-routes/maps/MW6003.jpg
Tim
On 7/14/18 8:41 AM, Andy Ringsmuth wrote:
On Jul 14, 2018, at 10:19 AM, Brian Kantor <Brian@ampr.org> wrote:
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I
Could they be a legacy of the Southern Pacific Railroad Internal
Network Telecommunications,
now known under the acronym SPRINT? - Brian
Not along Route 66 in Arizona. That generally parallels BNSF Railway,
was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried. formerly the Santa Fe down there. Southern Pacific followed Interstate 10 much further south.
---- Andy Ringsmuth andy@newslink.com News Link – Manager Technology, Travel & Facilities 2201 Winthrop Rd., Lincoln, NE 68502-4158 (402) 475-6397 (402) 304-0083 cellular
Too far North. BSNF territory. -------- Original message --------From: Brian Kantor <Brian@ampr.org> Date: 7/14/18 9:19 AM (GMT-07:00) To: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: (perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Could they be a legacy of the Southern Pacific Railroad Internal Network Telecommunications, now known under the acronym SPRINT? - Brian
On Sat, Jul 14, 2018, at 17:07, Keith Stokes wrote:
There’s a lot less backhoe fade with microwave. ;-)
Kidding aside, I’m sure there are plenty of scenarios where microwave makes better sense than fiber especially since it’s a lot easier to
HFT or any low-latency app is such a scenario (0.999c through air being 50% faster than 0.66c though fiber), but that region doesn't fit for that use.
On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
Hi Folks,
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Struck me as somewhat interesting.
It also struck me that folks here might have some comments.
Miles Fidelman
I’m not 100 percent positive, but from what I recall in my time down that way as a contractor for $major_railroad, I believe they are or were used by the railroad for their communication links. They may not necessarily be in service any longer though. Probably one of those instances where “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” In other words, if the tower isn’t falling down or a hazard, why spend the money to go remove it? I know as recently as 2003, BNSF Railway was still using and upgrading microwave infrastructure in Chicago. http://reference.newslink.com/current-pubs/CHIC/CHIC0304.pdf (see page 2) ---- Andy Ringsmuth andy@newslink.com News Link – Manager Technology, Travel & Facilities 2201 Winthrop Rd., Lincoln, NE 68502-4158 (402) 475-6397 (402) 304-0083 cellular
Is it possibly AT&T's old network? https://99percentinvisible.org/article/vintage-skynet-atts-abandoned-long-li... http://long-lines.net/places-routes/ This network runs through our service territory, too. The horns are distinctive. Frank -----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Miles Fidelman Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:54 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: (perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers Hi Folks, I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried. Struck me as somewhat interesting. It also struck me that folks here might have some comments. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
I was going to say... in my experience (I've been to a lot of the Arizona electronics sites, having grown up around broadcasting) that most of the microwave equipment in use was for Bell. That was by far the most populous tower on any mountain top. The broadcasters don't send their signals anywhere but either from downtown to the transmiter or in some cases from the big town to a small town to feed a local low power transmitter (like 5kw VHF as opposed to the normal 100kw). Anything else was Satelite. I know the railroad did some wireless (Sprint's towers were also quite densely packed with directional horns) but a lot of their communication for rail signaling was hardwire as far as I was aware. -Wayne On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 12:20:34PM -0500, frnkblk@iname.com wrote:
Is it possibly AT&T's old network? https://99percentinvisible.org/article/vintage-skynet-atts-abandoned-long-li... http://long-lines.net/places-routes/
This network runs through our service territory, too. The horns are distinctive.
Frank
-----Original Message----- From: NANOG <nanog-bounces@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Miles Fidelman Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:54 AM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: (perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers
Hi Folks,
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Struck me as somewhat interesting.
It also struck me that folks here might have some comments.
Miles Fidelman
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
--- Wayne Bouchard web@typo.org Network Dude http://www.typo.org/~web/
On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 08:54:25AM -0600, Miles Fidelman wrote: [...]
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Not a lot of fiber. If there was, the following wouldn't be needed: https://uto.asu.edu/sun-corridor-network-project-plans-broadband-access-alon... There *are* a number of fiber builds in the area, but none of them are a coherent build across the region.
No idea where you were at, but lots of big companies have done microwave and lots of new companies do microwave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCI_Communications MCI was founded as Microwave Communications, Inc. on October 3, 1963 with John D. Goeken being named the company's first president. The initial business plan was for the company to build a series of microwave relay stations between Chicago, Illinois and St. Louis, Missouri. The relay stations would then be used to interface with limited-range two-way radios used by truckers along U.S. Route 66 or by barges on the Illinois Waterway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_Corporation Southern Pacific maintained an extensive microwave communications system along its rights-of-way that the railroad used for internal communications. AT&T had a bunch and I think a couple sites are still active: http://long-lines.net/ Western Union had a microwave network as well. Lots of companies build microwave for internal communications. Rail and utility companies are big here. All of the cell companies do some microwave in their more rural areas. Lots of independent ISPs use microwave to build their entire network. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:54:25 AM Subject: (perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers Hi Folks, I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried. Struck me as somewhat interesting. It also struck me that folks here might have some comments. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Microwave radios are the things that break the mold of the incorrect assumption that just because it doesn't make sense to put up more wires to a house you can't have more than one provider. Considering that we've deployed a few wireless systems with less latency, jitter, and downtime than the local incumbent DOCSIS provider. In fact the greatest benefit to wireless microwave systems is the fact that they do not need to follow the right of way. Where wireline and fiberoptics must go through more hubs to get from side of town to the other, wireless is a point to point system with latencies+jitter sub 400 microseconds. No matter how great the incumbent fiber/dsl/coaxial network becomes, there will always be new microwave links going up. For their biggest strengths there's no replacement. Now, their weaknesses may be many, and may be apparent, their stengths just outweigh those. On 16 July 2018 at 10:01, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
No idea where you were at, but lots of big companies have done microwave and lots of new companies do microwave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCI_Communications
MCI was founded as Microwave Communications, Inc. on October 3, 1963 with John D. Goeken being named the company's first president. The initial business plan was for the company to build a series of microwave relay stations between Chicago, Illinois and St. Louis, Missouri. The relay stations would then be used to interface with limited-range two-way radios used by truckers along U.S. Route 66 or by barges on the Illinois Waterway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_Corporation
Southern Pacific maintained an extensive microwave communications system along its rights-of-way that the railroad used for internal communications.
AT&T had a bunch and I think a couple sites are still active: http://long-lines.net/
Western Union had a microwave network as well.
Lots of companies build microwave for internal communications. Rail and utility companies are big here.
All of the cell companies do some microwave in their more rural areas.
Lots of independent ISPs use microwave to build their entire network.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:54:25 AM Subject: (perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers
Hi Folks,
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Struck me as somewhat interesting.
It also struck me that folks here might have some comments.
Miles Fidelman
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
As Mike points out, there are a lot of us doing fixed-wireless / microwave now. We have our own industry. See: http://wispa.org/ -- Keefe John CEO Ethoplex Direct: 262.345.5200 -------------------- Ethoplex Business Internet http://www.ethoplex.com/ Signal Residential Internet http://www.signalisp.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/keefejohn/ On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 11:56 AM, Michael Crapse <michael@wi-fiber.io> wrote:
Microwave radios are the things that break the mold of the incorrect assumption that just because it doesn't make sense to put up more wires to a house you can't have more than one provider. Considering that we've deployed a few wireless systems with less latency, jitter, and downtime than the local incumbent DOCSIS provider. In fact the greatest benefit to wireless microwave systems is the fact that they do not need to follow the right of way. Where wireline and fiberoptics must go through more hubs to get from side of town to the other, wireless is a point to point system with latencies+jitter sub 400 microseconds.
No matter how great the incumbent fiber/dsl/coaxial network becomes, there will always be new microwave links going up. For their biggest strengths there's no replacement. Now, their weaknesses may be many, and may be apparent, their stengths just outweigh those.
On 16 July 2018 at 10:01, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
No idea where you were at, but lots of big companies have done microwave and lots of new companies do microwave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCI_Communications
MCI was founded as Microwave Communications, Inc. on October 3, 1963 with John D. Goeken being named the company's first president. The initial business plan was for the company to build a series of microwave relay stations between Chicago, Illinois and St. Louis, Missouri. The relay stations would then be used to interface with limited-range two-way radios used by truckers along U.S. Route 66 or by barges on the Illinois Waterway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_Corporation
Southern Pacific maintained an extensive microwave communications system along its rights-of-way that the railroad used for internal communications.
AT&T had a bunch and I think a couple sites are still active: http://long-lines.net/
Western Union had a microwave network as well.
Lots of companies build microwave for internal communications. Rail and utility companies are big here.
All of the cell companies do some microwave in their more rural areas.
Lots of independent ISPs use microwave to build their entire network.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:54:25 AM Subject: (perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers
Hi Folks,
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Struck me as somewhat interesting.
It also struck me that folks here might have some comments.
Miles Fidelman
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
-- Keefe John CEO Ethoplex Direct: 262.345.5200 -------------------- Ethoplex Business Internet http://www.ethoplex.com/ Signal Residential Internet http://www.signalisp.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/keefejohn/
Also worth mentioning that AT&T Canada originated with the Canadian Pacific Railway... CP Railway and Unitel --> AT&T Canada --> Allstream --> MTS-Allstream --> Zayo I have a GIS dataset with about 90% of the most important hilltop and mountaintop tower sites in WA, BC, OR and ID. There is a ton of stuff out there and operational. On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 9:01 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
No idea where you were at, but lots of big companies have done microwave and lots of new companies do microwave.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCI_Communications
MCI was founded as Microwave Communications, Inc. on October 3, 1963 with John D. Goeken being named the company's first president. The initial business plan was for the company to build a series of microwave relay stations between Chicago, Illinois and St. Louis, Missouri. The relay stations would then be used to interface with limited-range two-way radios used by truckers along U.S. Route 66 or by barges on the Illinois Waterway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_Corporation
Southern Pacific maintained an extensive microwave communications system along its rights-of-way that the railroad used for internal communications.
AT&T had a bunch and I think a couple sites are still active: http://long-lines.net/
Western Union had a microwave network as well.
Lots of companies build microwave for internal communications. Rail and utility companies are big here.
All of the cell companies do some microwave in their more rural areas.
Lots of independent ISPs use microwave to build their entire network.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Midwest-IX http://www.midwest-ix.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Miles Fidelman" <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 9:54:25 AM Subject: (perhaps off topic, but) Microwave Towers
Hi Folks,
I find myself driving down Route 66. On our way through Arizona, I was surprised by what look like a lot of old-style microwave links. They pretty much follow the East-West rail line - where I'd expect there's a lot of fiber buried.
Struck me as somewhat interesting.
It also struck me that folks here might have some comments.
Miles Fidelman
-- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
participants (15)
-
Andy Ringsmuth -
Andy Ringsmuth
-
Brian Kantor -
Eric Kuhnke -
frnkblk＠iname.com -
John Osmon -
Keefe John -
Keith Stokes -
Michael Crapse -
Mike Hammett -
Miles Fidelman -
Radu-Adrian Feurdean -
Robert DeVita -
Tim Pozar -
Wayne Bouchard