What is the connection between unregulated peering and the financial difficulties we have seen?
The problems have been caused by:
- Bad business models - Greed - Corporate officers who have shirked their fudiciary responsibilities to the stockholders
If you can somehow tie peering into this, please be my guest, but it would be a bit of a stretch.
you've asked and answered your own question, though. remember, wcom tried to buy sprint and it was only the EU's antitrust folks who stopped them. when peering was an engineering issue rather than a sales/equity/PR issue, there was a lot of it, and there were fewer single points of failure at ISO-L8 than we see today. i completely understand that acquisition is a common and valid means to grow a business. however, with closed peering as a way of life for our industry, a lot of deals are done which only make money for the investment bankers and don't actually "grow business". closed peering is all about greed and not about service levels, competitive pricing, or overall sector health. closed peering is a bad business model. it shirks fiduciary duty to long-term equity holders in order to give periodic "quick hits" to short-term holders. closed peering proceeds from a Highlander-like premise "there can be only one" when in fact there could be many, and if there were many then the industry overall would be healthier.
i completely understand that acquisition is a common and valid means to grow a business. however, with closed peering as a way of life for our industry, a lot of deals are done which only make money for the investment bankers and don't actually "grow business". closed peering is all about greed and not about service levels, competitive pricing, or overall sector health.
The reason we have this industry alive is investment bankers. Had we not had it, there would not have been abundance of fiber, abundance of competition and easy accessibility of IP. Like it or not, without these games we would have still though of a T1 as of a huge pipe. Alex
The reason we have this industry alive is investment bankers. Had we not had it, there would not have been abundance of fiber, abundance of competition and easy accessibility of IP. Like it or not, without these games we would have still though of a T1 as of a huge pipe. ---- True, and without further investment (by someone) we may think of an OC-192 as a huge pipe in 10 years. [work with me here. I am trying to make the point that a 10G/s line, which is available today, will not be significantly improved on for the forseeable future unless someone does investment]. DJ
Paul Vixie wrote: --- i completely understand that acquisition is a common and valid means to grow a business. however, with closed peering as a way of life for our industry, a lot of deals are done which only make money for the investment bankers and don't actually "grow business". closed peering is all about greed and not about service levels, competitive pricing, or overall sector health. closed peering is a bad business model. it shirks fiduciary duty to long-term equity holders in order to give periodic "quick hits" to short-term holders. closed peering proceeds from a Highlander-like premise "there can be only one" when in fact there could be many, and if there were many then the industry overall would be healthier. --- Agreed completely. BUT, your logic is very much "perfect world". There are a quite few reasons why this doesn't work "in the real world", same as communism works great in theory, but not in the real world. Eg: #1 Do you honestly believe that you wont run into any customers who will say "why should I buy from abovenet if I can peer with them? They will take a big percentage of my traffic and do it for free." *IF* you could have a setup where you could peer AND buy at the same time, then your model works better. #2 When something is being done for free, it is often not being done as well as if it were paid for, case in point: AboveNet's link to NY-IIX is 100mbit, right? The MRTG graphs seem to indicate that it is, AND that it was doing 90 megabit for several months straight. Shouldn't this have been upgraded to gig-e? Not cost effective? That being said, I like what above net does, and what they stand for, I just don't see how it can possibly make money. --Phil
On Mon, Jul 01, 2002 at 03:15:16PM -0400, Phil Rosenthal wrote:
#1 Do you honestly believe that you wont run into any customers who will say "why should I buy from abovenet if I can peer with them? They will take a big percentage of my traffic and do it for free."
So the question for AboveNet is, did the number of customers they got from having a network with open peering offset the number of customers they lost who peered with them instead of buying transit? Personally, I think the answer is yes.
*IF* you could have a setup where you could peer AND buy at the same time, then your model works better.
An extremely bad idea from a network abuse standpoint. But then again, if someone really wanted it that badly, whats to stop them from spending $200 on a fake company that buys the transit?
#2 When something is being done for free, it is often not being done as well as if it were paid for, case in point: AboveNet's link to NY-IIX is 100mbit, right? The MRTG graphs seem to indicate that it is, AND that it was doing 90 megabit for several months straight. Shouldn't this have been upgraded to gig-e? Not cost effective?
There are a lot worse examples of congestion in their graphs, though things have gotten a lot better in the last month or so as some big customers have pulled out (supernews for example). Also remember that you are looking at the yearly graph which is a 1 day average, I'm sure the 5 minute samples were quite pegged. But as for your point of free vs paid... They had transit customers paying them and they still delivered it through congested peers, so that really doesn't prove much. I'd say this falls into the category of "why you don't want to buy from financially unstable companies who wait until there is noone left to lay off before filing chapter 11" myself. -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras PGP Key ID: 0x138EA177 (67 29 D7 BC E8 18 3E DA B2 46 B3 D8 14 36 FE B6)
Agreed completely. BUT, your logic is very much "perfect world". There are a quite few reasons why this doesn't work "in the real world", same as communism works great in theory, but not in the real world.
actually, i'd argue that communism's theoretical basis has been roughed up over the years and that it's pretty much provably stupid even without trying to build any more existence proofs. but we're afield.
Eg: #1 Do you honestly believe that you wont run into any customers who will say "why should I buy from abovenet if I can peer with them? They will take a big percentage of my traffic and do it for free." *IF* you could have a setup where you could peer AND buy at the same time, then your model works better.
there is no useful endgame with a small number of large players. not only has wcom proved it, but the fact that only artificial barriers could prevent new large and small players from increasing the number. so let's assume a world where everybody who wants to profit from carrying (bits X distance) is able to try, and some of them figure out a way to charge more than their costs (even if those costs include some access fees or recip billing or settlements with networks larger than them (that year)). in that model, any enterprise large enough to install in lots of peering points and buy lots of longhaul will be able to achieve 100% peering coverage and not have to pay anybody any transit or access fees. note that these are huge numbers by everyday standards, and that the longhaul they're buying will be profitable for some of the dual-stack suppliers (who would also like to sell IP transit but will be satisfied with the wavelength revenue.) this is, as far as i'm concerned, a realistic world-view for fortune 100 companies. but it will certainly open the door to competition, since any well-enough- funded IP carrier could build that same network and charge "cost plus" pricing for IP transit. i can envision some consortiums sprouting up, with likely an industry-specific flavour (medical, car production, transportation, etc) to try to control supply line costs across specific industries. anyone with enough manna to build a global footprint would be able to avoid paying any kind of transit fees or other blood money to anybody else, even while they were paying for all kinds of capex and salary and wavelength. sounds like a healthy, vibrant, competitive environment to me. but is it utopian? not according to me. (witness my support for PAIX.) all it will take is for the so-called "tier-1's" to continue winnowing themselves down as their quasi-predatory closed peering model leaves them with nobody left to be predatory *toward*. i'm not arguing that some gov't needs to step in and fix anything. the market can self-correct -- like now. but i will continue to be astounded that the IP market is being _allowed_ to seek its own level, even at demonstrated great risk to consumers everywhere. there is in other words room for a moderate number of moderately sized companies to make a moderate profit selling the service of "we will build a global network and peer everywhere so that you won't have to." it's when we cut that number to a dozen, or a half dozen, or just one or two players, that the tree gets very brittle and the first strong breeze knocks it down. (no amount of predatory peering practice will keep another Level(3) from being created and well-funded whenever the existing players are making lots of cash... even if they aren't keeping (or counting :-)) that cash much.)
#2 When something is being done for free, it is often not being done as well as if it were paid for, case in point: AboveNet's link to NY-IIX is 100mbit, right? The MRTG graphs seem to indicate that it is, AND that it was doing 90 megabit for several months straight. Shouldn't this have been upgraded to gig-e? Not cost effective?
That being said, I like what above net does, and what they stand for, I just don't see how it can possibly make money.
well, so, i'm not MFN's CTO any more, and so i can't speak to their status since i'm just not in the loop. but the peering contract used to sign called for upgrades which a company in chapter 11 bankruptcy can ill afford, and so i can sort of imagine why they might not have upgraded that connection lately. BUT: the open peering model dave rand built abovenet upon and which i followed during my tenure there was in no way responsible for MFN's later woes. some customers did want to peer, and in some cases creative methods were found to get something that looked an awful lot like "both peering and transit", but for the most part abovenet was always seen by its customers as an *alternative* to having to build a wide area network and employ BGP engineers, since there would be just as much path splay at probably less total cost and without the hassle of directly employing anybody who has ever posted to NANOG. (for the most part we don't dress nicely and are a surely a surly lot, but don't call me shirley.) -- Paul Vixie
On Mon, 2002-07-01 at 17:53, Paul Vixie wrote:
What is the connection between unregulated peering and the financial difficulties we have seen?
The problems have been caused by:
- Bad business models - Greed - Corporate officers who have shirked their fudiciary responsibilities to the stockholders
If you can somehow tie peering into this, please be my guest, but it would be a bit of a stretch.
you've asked and answered your own question, though. remember, wcom tried to buy sprint and it was only the EU's antitrust folks who stopped them.
And I like to think that my demonstration of the insane paths that packets travelled to Wcom, which I made to the anti-trust tribunal at the time, helped to get that purchase stopped.
participants (7)
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alex@yuriev.com
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Deepak Jain
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Nigel Titley
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Paul Vixie
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Paul Vixie
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Phil Rosenthal
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Richard A Steenbergen