Re: Renesys Blog Article [Was: Re: the Intercage mess]
If a consensus can be reached here, we have seen a rise in this, that does raise concerns of a RIAA/MPAA type of mindset, which is detrimental vigilante Definition vigi·lante (vij′ə lan′tē, -län′-) noun 1. a member of a vigilance committee 2. any individual who acts outside of legal authority, often violently, to punish or avenge a crime, right a perceived wrong, etc. vigi·lan·tism (vij′ə lan′tiz′əm, -län′-; vij′ə lən tiz′əm) noun the lawless, violent methods, spirit, etc. of vigilantes vigilantism Related Forms vig′i·lan′·tist adjective vigilantism Usage Examples Noun used with modifier * 'Internet: But this has come under fire from many who see it as an example of 'Internet vigilantism ' that could destabilize Internet trading. Adjective modifier * self-appointed: We must, moreover, take action which is firm enough to pre-empt action by self-appointed vigilantes. ========================================================================= ----- Original Message ---- From: Gadi Evron <ge@linuxbox.org> To: Paul Ferguson <fergdawgster@gmail.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org; nanog-post@rsuc.gweep.net Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 6:02:21 PM Subject: Re: Renesys Blog Article [Was: Re: the Intercage mess] On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, Paul Ferguson wrote:
Just a side-note: Rensys has an interesting blog article up today on this Atrivo/Intercage "mess":
http://www.renesys.com/blog/2008/09/internet_vigilantism_1.shtml
FYI,
I have but one comment. There is a difference between Vigilantism as it is perceived today and Vigilantism as it is in the dictionary. It means neighborhood watch. When the Police is not around, that is something you need. "It's for the children". All in all, very nice blog post. While I feel I can not yet fully comment on the whole Atrivo / Intercage depeering movement, there is an underlying strategy to consider. I will comment at a later date. Gadi.
Henry Linneweh wrote:
If a consensus can be reached here, we have seen a rise in this, that does raise concerns of a RIAA/MPAA type of mindset, which is detrimental
vigilante Definition vigi·lante (vij′ə lan′tē, -län′-)
It is not vigilantism, it is the common law, rooted in ancient English history, of the "shire reeve", who we now call the "sheriff". The original duty of the shire reeve, among other things, was that he was 1 man out of every 10 households, whose duty it was to check the locks and gates of each house and barn, before himself retiring for the night. Another name for the sheriff, is the "Conservator of the Peace", which is, that on behalf of the community, he ensures that there is peace. Each of the smaller networks connected to the larger Internet, has someone whose job it is to be sure that the "locks and gates" are shut. Telling everyone to be careful of the known thief and to take precautions against him, is not slander, libel, or vigilantism. Just common sense. --Patrick
It is not vigilantism, it is the common law, rooted in ancient English history, of the "shire reeve", who we now call the "sheriff".
Reeve means "called", from the Germanic verb "rufen". In other words, this person is someone who is called to the duty by the shire. The point that has been raised about vigilantism is that the people taking action have not been appointed by the community and therefore are not answerable to the community, nor are there actions controllable in any way by the community.
The original duty of the shire reeve, among other things, was that he was 1 man out of every 10 households, whose duty it was to check the locks and gates of each house and barn, before himself retiring for the night.
In other words, this person checked the property of his peers. He was one of the community which selected him.
Each of the smaller networks connected to the larger Internet, has someone whose job it is to be sure that the "locks and gates" are shut.
And those network security people generally don't hang out on NANOG. Instead they hang out in various security forums like MAAWG etc. --Michael Dillon
Le 08-09-29 à 10:40, <michael.dillon@bt.com> <michael.dillon@bt.com> a écrit :
It is not vigilantism, it is the common law, rooted in ancient English history, of the "shire reeve", who we now call the "sheriff".
Reeve means "called", from the Germanic verb "rufen". In other words, this person is someone who is called to the duty by the shire.
George Trevelyan's History of England gives the distinct impression that the sheriff was not quite so grass-roots an office as this thread might have one believe. The office was created at the instigation of the Norman monarchs so that they would have a parallel administrative structure from that of the feudal barons. This was to make it harder for the uppity barons to unseat the king as happened regularly in pre-Norman times.
In other words, this person checked the property of his peers. He was one of the community which selected him.
I wonder if the reeve (gerefa) was thought of as called by the community or by the king. Trevelyan and etymonline suggest the latter. Who, within the community, got to be sheriff was probably the community's choice. But once in office the sheriff was likely answerable to the king. In the absence of a monarch, is NANOG now trying to behave like the North American Regency Council? Hmmm... In Spain, a vigilante is a security guard, almost always unarmed, whose job it is to be vigilant and call the police if something bad happens and take temporary measures if possible in the meantime. That type of vigilante would seem to correspond quite closely with the job of the responsible network security/operations person. Cheers, -w -- William Waites VE2WSW <ww@styx.org> http://www.irl.styx.org/ +49 30 8894 9942 CD70 0498 8AE4 36EA 1CD7 281C 427A 3F36 2130 E9F5
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 1:40 AM, <michael.dillon@bt.com> wrote:
And those network security people generally don't hang out on NANOG. Instead they hang out in various security forums like MAAWG etc.
Not sure why you assume that -- I'm sure there are plenty of "security folks" on the NANOG list, who may also follow other more specific security forums. - - ferg -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP Desktop 9.6.3 (Build 3017) wj8DBQFI4Qxtq1pz9mNUZTMRAudrAJ43+kzwmoWVPe/W2go8JVpsvZAoygCgh1Xu grjzedQ5qhk05525tJ+80+4= =U0aF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -- "Fergie", a.k.a. Paul Ferguson Engineering Architecture for the Internet fergdawgster(at)gmail.com ferg's tech blog: http://fergdawg.blogspot.com/
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Andrew Henry Linneweh wrote:
If a consensus can be reached here, we have seen a rise in this, that does raise concerns of a RIAA/MPAA type of mindset, which is detrimental
vigilante Definition vigi·lante (vij′ə lan′tē, -län′-) noun 1. a member of a vigilance committee 2. any individual who acts outside of legal authority, often violently, to punish or avenge a crime, right a perceived wrong, etc. vigi·lan·tism (vij′ə lan′tiz′əm, -län′-; vij′ə lən tiz′əm) noun the lawless, violent methods, spirit, etc. of vigilantes
vigilantism Related Forms vig′i·lan′·tist adjective
vigilantism Usage Examples Noun used with modifier * 'Internet: But this has come under fire from many who see it as an example of 'Internet vigilantism ' that could destabilize Internet trading. Adjective modifier * self-appointed: We must, moreover, take action which is firm enough to pre-empt action by self-appointed vigilantes. =========================================================================
----- Original Message ---- From: Gadi Evron <ge@linuxbox.org> To: Paul Ferguson <fergdawgster@gmail.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org; nanog-post@rsuc.gweep.net Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 6:02:21 PM Subject: Re: Renesys Blog Article [Was: Re: the Intercage mess]
On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, Paul Ferguson wrote:
Just a side-note: Rensys has an interesting blog article up today on this Atrivo/Intercage "mess":
http://www.renesys.com/blog/2008/09/internet_vigilantism_1.shtml
FYI,
I have but one comment.
There is a difference between Vigilantism as it is perceived today and Vigilantism as it is in the dictionary. It means neighborhood watch.
When the Police is not around, that is something you need. "It's for the children".
All in all, very nice blog post. While I feel I can not yet fully comment on the whole Atrivo / Intercage depeering movement, there is an underlying strategy to consider. I will comment at a later date.
Gadi.
I'll argue that the term "vigilante" doesn't belong in this conversation. (Apologies to those who have seen this reasoning elsewhere.) Nobody did anything *to* them, it's just that folks stopped doing things *for* them, as an act of self-defense after many years of non-stop, prolific abuse. ---Rsk
participants (7)
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Andrew D Kirch -
Henry Linneweh -
michael.dillon＠bt.com -
Patrick Giagnocavo -
Paul Ferguson -
Rich Kulawiec -
William Waites