Bonded SDSL (was RE: ITU G.992.5 Annex M - ADSL2+M Questions)
Frank Bulk - iName.com <frnkblk@iname.com> wrote:
We offer it, but practically speaking we haven't gotten much higher than 1.5 Mbps on the upstream.
Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed), but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded SDSL or not? I have spent the past 5 years of my life learning everything there is to know about SDSL. Don't ask me why, I don't really know the answer to that question myself. I won't waste the bandwidth of this elite list with dirty details of just what I've done with SDSL over the past 5 y, but I'll give a link to an open source project that contains the body of SDSL knowledge amassed over those years: http://ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG/OpenSDSL/ To make the long story short, for most of those years I kept trudging on my project, treating it as an ultra-weird hobby that no one else in the world could possibly have any interest in. That persisted until 2009 when my project got noticed by two fairly major North American DSL network operators. (Well, one very major and one semi-major, but I'll spare the names.) Both of those had contacted me via my Open SDSL Connectivity Project expressing interest in SDSL bonding. Both companies were telling me how much interest they had in SDSL bonding, how much it would help their business to be able to offer bonded SDSL services at 3 or 6 Mbps, how many customers they would be able to sign up for these services, etc. But when I asked them to back their verbally-expressed interest with the tiniest amount of money or even no money at all but a letter of intent which I could show to SBA etc, they both went silent. We've been playing a game of cat-and-mouse ever since. As far as I could understand the existing situation is that the SDSL infrastructure already deployed en masse by the major North American DSL network operators already has the capability to serve out bonded SDSL circuits, bonding either in the DSLAM or somewhere upstream of it, using MLPPP, Multilink Frame Relay or whatever else one can think of, but the problem is with CPE. Apparently bonding-capable multiport SDSL CPE devices are quite scarce. Considering everything I've done with SDSL over the past 5 y, I believe I have a right to say with confidence that I am more than capable of designing and building a bonding-capable multiport SDSL CPE device for any existing SDSL flavor with any desired number of ports (2, 4 or whatever). But what I don't know, and what I'm asking this highly esteemed list for advice with, is this question: is there anyone at all in the world who might have a real serious interest in such a thing? If there is someone in the world who would truly appreciate having a bonded SDSL solution, I would be delighted to work on developing such a thing. I would see it as a service to humanity whereby more use would be made out of existing copper infrastructure in the ground instead of having to dig more ditches to bury more fiber or whatever. But if there is no one in the world who would be interested in bonded SDSL (or at least interested enough to invest one dime into development), then why bother... MS
Michael Sokolov wrote:
Frank Bulk - iName.com <frnkblk@iname.com> wrote:
We offer it, but practically speaking we haven't gotten much higher than 1.5 Mbps on the upstream.
Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed), but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded SDSL or not?
I have spent the past 5 years of my life learning everything there is to know about SDSL. Don't ask me why, I don't really know the answer to that question myself. I won't waste the bandwidth of this elite list with dirty details of just what I've done with SDSL over the past 5 y, but I'll give a link to an open source project that contains the body of SDSL knowledge amassed over those years:
Michael, I'm but a small humble ISP. We have sold SDSL since ~1996. The bonded circuits have been terminated differently over the years, but I still have a fair number of business clients that have SP supplied CPE that is extremely affordable, and that require little to no work on our part. Other than a few stragglers that I keep afloat on SDSL that require fail-over, I've been trying to get rid of the dedicated copper as much as possible, since I 'lease' the copper for the dry circuit(s). We've reached past the break-even point for fibre access within our area, and am at the point where the *very* 'ritzy' resi clients can and will soon be approached. The max length of SDSL that I currently have is 6.7 wired km. Bonded, our longest distance is 5.4 km. Peak throughput over our longest bonded (2 pair) SDSL circuit is 2.25Mb. Given relative average, in the locations that I can provide optics, there is a gain of revenue percentage that I achieve over standard copper SDSL. IOW, when revenue for a bonded SDSL circuit is $285 and I pay $49.40 per circuit for the four wire copper, things begin to look more attractive when I pay *nothing* for the dark fibre, but am able to provide multiple times the bandwidth at the same price to the client ;) fwiw, for bonded SDSL, we have currently: - Symmetric GoWide units deployed (both on the PE and CPE) that inherently manage two-pair which requires but one switch port and no configuration. Aggregates internally. - an 'Elastic' rack that requires a bit more setup on both ends. Terminate into a vlan on a switch to aggregate properly. A 'setup' fee covers this one-time fix. Remember, small ISP, I'm not used to scaling human resources ;) - multiple other stand-alone SDSL modem types (dslam/non-dslam, such as PairGain etc) - Copper Mountain BTW, while on topic, if you know anyone who wants a fully shelved and carded Copper Mountain CE200 dslam w/ dual power supplies, let me know ;) Steve
Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed), but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded SDSL or not?
Not only is there interest, it is actually seeing significant use - at least here in Norway. Typical case is bonding 2 or 4 SHDSL links for a total capacity of 4 or 8 Mbps. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no
sthaug@nethelp.no wrote:
Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed), but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded SDSL or not?
Not only is there interest, it is actually seeing significant use - at least here in Norway. Typical case is bonding 2 or 4 SHDSL links for a total capacity of 4 or 8 Mbps.
Out of curiosity, in Norway, who owns the copper? What is your revenue/lease cost ratio? off-list if too far off topic. I'm just curious. I'm about the Toronto Canada area, and I'm just looking at the rough lease cost per km. Be interesting to see if the same figure shows up elsewhere, or, for all I know, perhaps not all countries have a single 'owner' of the copper... Steve
Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed), but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded SDSL or not?
Not only is there interest, it is actually seeing significant use - at least here in Norway. Typical case is bonding 2 or 4 SHDSL links for a total capacity of 4 or 8 Mbps.
Out of curiosity, in Norway, who owns the copper? What is your revenue/lease cost ratio?
The copper is owned by the incumbent, Telenor. Leasing copper pairs is 95 NOK (around 17 USD) per pair per year. We have our own DSL equipment in the Telenor COs, which lets us produce (among other things) bonded SHDSL. Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no
It's being done by Actelis, Hatteras, and Zhone. More exactly SHDSL or similar variants. The market is being well-served. Frank -----Original Message----- From: Michael Sokolov [mailto:msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG] Sent: Monday, January 04, 2010 9:40 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Bonded SDSL (was RE: ITU G.992.5 Annex M - ADSL2+M Questions) Frank Bulk - iName.com <frnkblk@iname.com> wrote:
We offer it, but practically speaking we haven't gotten much higher than 1.5 Mbps on the upstream.
Sorry that I'm coming into this thread late (I have just subscribed), but since I see people discussing DSL with beefy upstream, I thought I would be brave and ask: do you esteemed high-end network op folks think that there may be anyone in the world who might be interested in bonded SDSL or not? I have spent the past 5 years of my life learning everything there is to know about SDSL. Don't ask me why, I don't really know the answer to that question myself. I won't waste the bandwidth of this elite list with dirty details of just what I've done with SDSL over the past 5 y, but I'll give a link to an open source project that contains the body of SDSL knowledge amassed over those years: http://ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG/OpenSDSL/ To make the long story short, for most of those years I kept trudging on my project, treating it as an ultra-weird hobby that no one else in the world could possibly have any interest in. That persisted until 2009 when my project got noticed by two fairly major North American DSL network operators. (Well, one very major and one semi-major, but I'll spare the names.) Both of those had contacted me via my Open SDSL Connectivity Project expressing interest in SDSL bonding. Both companies were telling me how much interest they had in SDSL bonding, how much it would help their business to be able to offer bonded SDSL services at 3 or 6 Mbps, how many customers they would be able to sign up for these services, etc. But when I asked them to back their verbally-expressed interest with the tiniest amount of money or even no money at all but a letter of intent which I could show to SBA etc, they both went silent. We've been playing a game of cat-and-mouse ever since. As far as I could understand the existing situation is that the SDSL infrastructure already deployed en masse by the major North American DSL network operators already has the capability to serve out bonded SDSL circuits, bonding either in the DSLAM or somewhere upstream of it, using MLPPP, Multilink Frame Relay or whatever else one can think of, but the problem is with CPE. Apparently bonding-capable multiport SDSL CPE devices are quite scarce. Considering everything I've done with SDSL over the past 5 y, I believe I have a right to say with confidence that I am more than capable of designing and building a bonding-capable multiport SDSL CPE device for any existing SDSL flavor with any desired number of ports (2, 4 or whatever). But what I don't know, and what I'm asking this highly esteemed list for advice with, is this question: is there anyone at all in the world who might have a real serious interest in such a thing? If there is someone in the world who would truly appreciate having a bonded SDSL solution, I would be delighted to work on developing such a thing. I would see it as a service to humanity whereby more use would be made out of existing copper infrastructure in the ground instead of having to dig more ditches to bury more fiber or whatever. But if there is no one in the world who would be interested in bonded SDSL (or at least interested enough to invest one dime into development), then why bother... MS
participants (4)
-
Frank Bulk - iName.com -
msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG -
Steve Bertrand -
sthaug＠nethelp.no