Re: Re[2]: telehouse - 25 broadway
I'm sure a full analysis will be performed after the recovery efforts are completed. I'm also certain the operators of both 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are working very dilgently to get them running. But I would like to point out, no one regularly runs their generators for 48+ hours as part of a normal test. In addition, most standby generators are fitted only for "limited" duration runs. You should expect problems during any extended run of a generator plant. I'm a bit surprised that 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are the only ones we've heard about. Until I know a bit more about what happened, I can't say whether any alternative design could have performed better. On Sat, 15 September 2001, Joe McGuckin wrote:
Was this unit tested regularly? With a load bank?
If there was a weekly test run, why wasn't this problem caught?
It seems like there's a lesson to be learned here.
My guess is that many sites' idea of a periodic test is to fire up the generator (without a load) for 5 or ten minutes and assume everything's ok.
How many folks actually perform a load transfer to the generator during testing to check out the transfer switch ?
Actually I think Exodus will run em for a week or two as a test.. Brian "Sonic" Whalen Success = Preparation + Opportunity On 15 Sep 2001, Sean Donelan wrote:
I'm sure a full analysis will be performed after the recovery efforts are completed. I'm also certain the operators of both 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are working very dilgently to get them running.
But I would like to point out, no one regularly runs their generators for 48+ hours as part of a normal test. In addition, most standby generators are fitted only for "limited" duration runs. You should expect problems during any extended run of a generator plant. I'm a bit surprised that 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are the only ones we've heard about.
Until I know a bit more about what happened, I can't say whether any alternative design could have performed better.
On Sat, 15 September 2001, Joe McGuckin wrote:
Was this unit tested regularly? With a load bank?
If there was a weekly test run, why wasn't this problem caught?
It seems like there's a lesson to be learned here.
My guess is that many sites' idea of a periodic test is to fire up the generator (without a load) for 5 or ten minutes and assume everything's ok.
How many folks actually perform a load transfer to the generator during testing to check out the transfer switch ?
No. Exodus runs standard generator testing, like any other company. cheers! On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Brian Whalen wrote:
Actually I think Exodus will run em for a week or two as a test..
Brian "Sonic" Whalen Success = Preparation + Opportunity
On 15 Sep 2001, Sean Donelan wrote:
I'm sure a full analysis will be performed after the recovery efforts are completed. I'm also certain the operators of both 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are working very dilgently to get them running.
But I would like to point out, no one regularly runs their generators for 48+ hours as part of a normal test. In addition, most standby generators are fitted only for "limited" duration runs. You should expect problems during any extended run of a generator plant. I'm a bit surprised that 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are the only ones we've heard about.
Until I know a bit more about what happened, I can't say whether any alternative design could have performed better.
On Sat, 15 September 2001, Joe McGuckin wrote:
Was this unit tested regularly? With a load bank?
If there was a weekly test run, why wasn't this problem caught?
It seems like there's a lesson to be learned here.
My guess is that many sites' idea of a periodic test is to fire up the generator (without a load) for 5 or ten minutes and assume everything's ok.
How many folks actually perform a load transfer to the generator during testing to check out the transfer switch ?
========================================================================== "A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now."
How many folks actually perform a load transfer to the generator during testing to check out the transfer switch ?
Back in my military hospital days, we did both regular load tests, using a LARGE resistive loads we flowed water through to cool (4" feed pipe) as well did actual swapovers (on weekends). Never seen it done that way since, when we bought our current generator system the company that installed it thought I was crazy for even asking about a test load. We do do a full swapover every few months... --Mike--
Unnamed Administration sources reported that Sean Donelan said:
But I would like to point out, no one regularly runs their generators for 48+ hours as part of a normal test. In addition, most standby generators are fitted only for "limited" duration runs. You should expect problems during any extended run of a generator plant. I'm a bit surprised that 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are the only ones we've heard about.
Until I know a bit more about what happened, I can't say whether any alternative design could have performed better.
Hell yes. "Standby service" is a way different set of rating than "24x7"..... (I'm sorry to guess if it still overheats, a blown headgasket or cracked head are real possibilities...) -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
On 03:31 AM 9/16/2001 -0400, David Lesher wrote:
(I'm sorry to guess if it still overheats, a blown headgasket or cracked head are real possibilities...)
That would be likely if it's leaking water. If it isn't leaking water, we are right back at that radiator. I bet the radiator isn't doing a sufficient job of cooling the water that's going thru it because the radiator's fins are clogged with dust. Get out that hose and drizzle it over the radiator so that a stream of cool water is going over the fins instead of relying on air blowing over the fins to cool the circulating water. If this doesn't affect the overheating problem at all, then you have diagnosed that it isn't the radiator and will have to start looking more closely at the block/head. jc
I certainly know over on this side of the water large electricity customers with generators have a very valid reason to run long tests. Basically the national grid gives you a *huge* discount if you run on generators at peak times which is usual 6pm to 5am. I certainly now all our larger CO's run the gens like this. The first time I saw this I thought the CO was on fire due to the diesel fumes the voice guys had a good laugh at me !. Before someone asks we have a very steady national supply over here so running the gens is purely a commerical aim.I would have thought that even stateside this would make sense no ? Regards, Kevin On 15 Sep 2001, Sean Donelan wrote:
I'm sure a full analysis will be performed after the recovery efforts are completed. I'm also certain the operators of both 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are working very dilgently to get them running.
But I would like to point out, no one regularly runs their generators for 48+ hours as part of a normal test. In addition, most standby generators are fitted only for "limited" duration runs. You should expect problems during any extended run of a generator plant. I'm a bit surprised that 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are the only ones we've heard about.
Until I know a bit more about what happened, I can't say whether any alternative design could have performed better.
On Sat, 15 September 2001, Joe McGuckin wrote:
Was this unit tested regularly? With a load bank?
If there was a weekly test run, why wasn't this problem caught?
It seems like there's a lesson to be learned here.
My guess is that many sites' idea of a periodic test is to fire up the generator (without a load) for 5 or ten minutes and assume everything's ok.
How many folks actually perform a load transfer to the generator during testing to check out the transfer switch ?
On Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 08:56:10PM -0700, Sean Donelan wrote:
But I would like to point out, no one regularly runs their generators for 48+ hours as part of a normal test. In addition, most standby generators are fitted only for "limited" duration runs. You should expect problems during any extended run of a generator plant. I'm a bit surprised that 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are the only ones we've heard about.
I think "limited" here is a bit misleading. Most of these engines are continuous duity rated, which means within the bounds of maintenance items (oil changes, gasket changes, and other routine maintenance) they can run non-stop. Most gensets are essentially the same components that power diesel-electric locomotives that routinely run for weeks at a time without shutdown. Here in ice storm country every few years power is out for 3-4 days in some areas after bad storms. Generators routinely run for 3-4 days and cause no concern over their condition, other than to move up routine maintenance due to the additional run time. I suspect dust is going to be the largest problem for all generators in the area. It will reduce radiator effectiveness, wear on exteral parts (fans and the like), clog air and oil cleaners. Again, these devices are made for some fairly harsh enviornments so 48 hours is no concern, I would think expecting 2 weeks of reliable power if they are attended to even in these conditions is reasonable. That said, generators should always be at least N+1, as they are large, complex mechanical devices. -- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Leo Bicknell wrote:
That said, generators should always be at least N+1, as they are large, complex mechanical devices.
It seems telehouse does "1 per floor", which seems a bit silly, especially when the floor without tenants gets all the electricity. Charles
-- Leo Bicknell - bicknell@ufp.org Systems Engineer - Internetworking Engineer - CCIE 3440 Read TMBG List - tmbg-list-request@tmbg.org, www.tmbg.org
generator plant. I'm a bit surprised that 25 Broadway and 32 Old Slip are the only ones we've heard about.
From what I've heard from 32 Old Slip, the reason for thier generators to fail was that the intake filters were clogged from the concrete dust in the air.
-- Alex Rubenstein, AR97, K2AHR, alex@nac.net, latency, Al Reuben -- -- Net Access Corporation, 800-NET-ME-36, http://www.nac.net --
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:45:26 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: Alex Rubenstein <alex@nac.net>
From what I've heard from 32 Old Slip, the reason for thier generators to fail was that the intake filters were clogged from the concrete dust in the air.
Hmmmm.... although this situation is far from one's typical power outage, maybe one should not rely on the radiator. Ass-u-ming that one has a steady supply of water: s/radiator-cooled water/external water supply/ It works the same. The only purpose of the radiator is to facilitate cooling _without_ an external water supply, to reuse the existing water. Yes, a contastly-flowing external water supply is wasteful. So we make it "emergency only". Note that the numbers represent thermostat temperatures in degrees Fahrenheit[1], and the arrows signify flow direction (check valves and water pump omitted for simplicity): ~~~~~~ supply ~~~~~~ | V +------<------+ | | V | +--------+ | | engine | ^ +--------+ | | | V | +-----+ | | 165 | ^ +-----+ | | | V | +----------+ | | radiator | ^ +----------+ | | | V | +-----+ +------>------+--->----| 195 | +-----+ | V ~~~~~ drain ~~~~~ [1] Apologies to the standards-abiding, metric-loving people out there. I just don't feel like converting right now. :-) Save for the high-temp thermostat and the external water supply, it looks remarkably like a standard system with overflow. The big disadvantage to this design is that, if one runs out of water, this _will_ overheat. But overheating is imminent when the high-temp thermostat opens (a prerequisite for running out of water), so we were SOL anyway.
-- Alex Rubenstein, AR97, K2AHR, alex@nac.net, latency, Al Reuben -- -- Net Access Corporation, 800-NET-ME-36, http://www.nac.net --
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From what I've heard from 32 Old Slip, the reason for thier generators to fail was that the intake filters were clogged from the concrete dust in the air.
Hmmmm.... although this situation is far from one's typical power outage, maybe one should not rely on the radiator. Ass-u-ming that one has a steady supply of water:
No, not the radiator was clogged; the air intake filter was. -- Alex Rubenstein, AR97, K2AHR, alex@nac.net, latency, Al Reuben -- -- Net Access Corporation, 800-NET-ME-36, http://www.nac.net --
participants (11)
-
Alex Rubenstein -
Brian Whalen -
Charles Sprickman -
David Lesher -
E.B. Dreger -
Gwendolynn ferch Elydyr -
JC Dill -
kevin pop account -
Leo Bicknell -
mike harrison -
Sean Donelan