On 7/12/13 1:39 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
Put another way, whether it was stupid or evil, the results are the same. Turning off a customer in good standing is actionable in court, and should be avoided by legitimate businesses at nearly all costs. You can void a contract at any time so long as you're willing to accept the result.
I've seen people have their service cut off and a carrier keep their equipment. Sure they will get it back, but is it worth spending 100k fighting them in court for three years? -- Bryan Fields 727-409-1194 - Voice 727-214-2508 - Fax http://bryanfields.net
On Jul 12, 2013, at 13:44 , Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
On 7/12/13 1:39 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
Put another way, whether it was stupid or evil, the results are the same. Turning off a customer in good standing is actionable in court, and should be avoided by legitimate businesses at nearly all costs. You can void a contract at any time so long as you're willing to accept the result.
Hence the "actionable in court" phrase.
I've seen people have their service cut off and a carrier keep their equipment. Sure they will get it back, but is it worth spending 100k fighting them in court for three years?
Every business makes tough decisions. For instance, judging the risk/reward ratio of getting, for instance, loss of use fees, legal fees, etc., out of an opponent in a court case. Either way, I'm interested in hearing when a company does these bad things so I can add that into the decision when considering that company. (To be clear, one person saying "they cut me off without warning" does not automatically mean I would never do business with a company. There's always another side. But I still like to collect the info when possible.) In this case, the OP didn't mention which company it was, other than "monopole". -- TTFN, patrick
On 07/12/13 13:54, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
On Jul 12, 2013, at 13:44 , Bryan Fields <Bryan@bryanfields.net> wrote:
On 7/12/13 1:39 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
Put another way, whether it was stupid or evil, the results are the same. Turning off a customer in good standing is actionable in court, and should be avoided by legitimate businesses at nearly all costs. You can void a contract at any time so long as you're willing to accept the result. Hence the "actionable in court" phrase.
I've seen people have their service cut off and a carrier keep their equipment. Sure they will get it back, but is it worth spending 100k fighting them in court for three years? Every business makes tough decisions. For instance, judging the risk/reward ratio of getting, for instance, loss of use fees, legal fees, etc., out of an opponent in a court case.
Either way, I'm interested in hearing when a company does these bad things so I can add that into the decision when considering that company. (To be clear, one person saying "they cut me off without warning" does not automatically mean I would never do business with a company. There's always another side. But I still like to collect the info when possible.)
In this case, the OP didn't mention which company it was, other than "monopole".
Well "monopole" (or in good english "monopoly") ... I left their name out on purpose. There is no point into shaming them. I was more interested how prevalent it was in other markets. As this being in Canada... They can easily bury any legal action in suits for centuries =D ----- Alain Hebert ahebert@pubnix.net PubNIX Inc. 50 boul. St-Charles P.O. Box 26770 Beaconsfield, Quebec H9W 6G7 Tel: 514-990-5911 http://www.pubnix.net Fax: 514-990-9443
Set up your own email server, host your own web pages, maintain your own cloud, breath your own oxygen FTW. N.
On Jul 12, 2013, at 19:22 , Nick Khamis <symack@gmail.com> wrote:
Set up your own email server, host your own web pages, maintain your own cloud, breath your own oxygen FTW.
That's simply not realistic for many companies and essentially all people (to a first approximation). -- TTFN, patrick
I think it is (could be) (should be) realistic for many/most businesses. TWELVE years ago (press release March 20 2001), Comcast deployed Linux-based Sun Cobalt Qube appliances as CPE with their business-class Internet service, these provided firewall security, web caching, optional content filtering, an e-mail server, a web server, file and print servers. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/comcast-business-communications-hits -a-home-run-with-detroits-comerica-park-71752402.html You could argue that (a) it was not "your own" server, even though it was CPE, or (b) Comcast did not continue to offer these appliances (i.e. that Sun cancelled the product line), but my point is that it was provided within the economics of the Internet Services being purchased, i.e. not cost-prohibitive. Tony Patti CIO S. Walter Packaging Corp. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick W. Gilmore [mailto:patrick@ianai.net] Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 6:23 PM To: NANOG list Subject: Re: Friday Hosing On Jul 12, 2013, at 19:22 , Nick Khamis <symack@gmail.com> wrote:
Set up your own email server, host your own web pages, maintain your own cloud, breath your own oxygen FTW.
That's simply not realistic for many companies and essentially all people (to a first approximation). -- TTFN, patrick
I could support any of these services myself, and have guys that work me that can as well, but none of these are my core business, and my investors REALLY prefer me focusing on my core business, I suspect most of us have shareholders, investors, owners that feel the same way. I struggled with idea of not running my own boxes for services, but in the end decided that the trade of various gov't reading my boring office mail was the right choice for my business. -jim On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Tony Patti <tony@swalter.com> wrote:
I think it is (could be) (should be) realistic for many/most businesses.
TWELVE years ago (press release March 20 2001), Comcast deployed Linux-based Sun Cobalt Qube appliances as CPE with their business-class Internet service, these provided firewall security, web caching, optional content filtering, an e-mail server, a web server, file and print servers.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/comcast-business-communications-hits -a-home-run-with-detroits-comerica-park-71752402.html
You could argue that (a) it was not "your own" server, even though it was CPE, or (b) Comcast did not continue to offer these appliances (i.e. that Sun cancelled the product line), but my point is that it was provided within the economics of the Internet Services being purchased, i.e. not cost-prohibitive.
Tony Patti CIO S. Walter Packaging Corp.
-----Original Message----- From: Patrick W. Gilmore [mailto:patrick@ianai.net] Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 6:23 PM To: NANOG list Subject: Re: Friday Hosing
On Jul 12, 2013, at 19:22 , Nick Khamis <symack@gmail.com> wrote:
Set up your own email server, host your own web pages, maintain your own cloud, breath your own oxygen FTW.
That's simply not realistic for many companies and essentially all people (to a first approximation).
-- TTFN, patrick
Jim, thanks, certainly understand business priorities. But Patrick's statement was that a business having its own server was "simply not realistic", which I took to be along the dimensions of economically unrealistic or technically unrealistic. In a world of kids growing up with Raspberry Pi's (i.e. their own server to login as root), learning HTML in High School (if not earlier), is it only lack of interest which keeps businesses from having their own server? Is it "realistic" for companies to have an appliance which can provide email and web? Tony Patti CIO S. Walter Packaging Corp. From: jim deleskie [mailto:deleskie@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 8:44 PM To: Tony Patti Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Friday Hosing I could support any of these services myself, and have guys that work me that can as well, but none of these are my core business, and my investors REALLY prefer me focusing on my core business, I suspect most of us have shareholders, investors, owners that feel the same way. I struggled with idea of not running my own boxes for services, but in the end decided that the trade of various gov't reading my boring office mail was the right choice for my business. -jim On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Tony Patti <tony@swalter.com> wrote: I think it is (could be) (should be) realistic for many/most businesses. TWELVE years ago (press release March 20 2001), Comcast deployed Linux-based Sun Cobalt Qube appliances as CPE with their business-class Internet service, these provided firewall security, web caching, optional content filtering, an e-mail server, a web server, file and print servers. http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/comcast-business-communications-hits <http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/comcast-business-communications-hit s-a-home-run-with-detroits-comerica-park-71752402.html> -a-home-run-with-detroits-comerica-park-71752402.html You could argue that (a) it was not "your own" server, even though it was CPE, or (b) Comcast did not continue to offer these appliances (i.e. that Sun cancelled the product line), but my point is that it was provided within the economics of the Internet Services being purchased, i.e. not cost-prohibitive. Tony Patti CIO S. Walter Packaging Corp. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick W. Gilmore [mailto:patrick@ianai.net] Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2013 6:23 PM To: NANOG list Subject: Re: Friday Hosing On Jul 12, 2013, at 19:22 , Nick Khamis <symack@gmail.com> wrote:
Set up your own email server, host your own web pages, maintain your own cloud, breath your own oxygen FTW.
That's simply not realistic for many companies and essentially all people (to a first approximation). -- TTFN, patrick
On 15/07/13 01:09, Tony Patti wrote:
TWELVE years ago (press release March 20 2001), Comcast deployed Linux-based Sun Cobalt Qube appliances as CPE with their business-class Internet service, these provided firewall security, web caching, optional content filtering, an e-mail server, a web server, file and print servers.
This is a good idea.
On 7/17/13 1:59 PM, Alex Harrowell wrote:
On 15/07/13 01:09, Tony Patti wrote:
TWELVE years ago (press release March 20 2001), Comcast deployed Linux-based Sun Cobalt Qube appliances as CPE with their business-class Internet service, these provided firewall security, web caching, optional content filtering, an e-mail server, a web server, file and print servers.
This is a good idea At the time it may have been the "best" option, but that doesn't make it a good idea. I can't even begin to comprehend the number of support calls generated by providing CPE with those functions.
-- Jeff Walter
On 17/07/13 23:52, Jeff Walter wrote:
On 7/17/13 1:59 PM, Alex Harrowell wrote:
On 15/07/13 01:09, Tony Patti wrote:
TWELVE years ago (press release March 20 2001), Comcast deployed Linux-based Sun Cobalt Qube appliances as CPE with their business-class Internet service, these provided firewall security, web caching, optional content filtering, an e-mail server, a web server, file and print servers. This is a good idea At the time it may have been the "best" option, but that doesn't make it a good idea. I can't even begin to comprehend the number of support calls generated by providing CPE with those functions.
That said, I can think of a couple of European quality ISPs that hand out CPE approaching that degree of feature richness - Free.fr's Freeboxes (although that's consumer-oriented), Andrews & Arnold's Firebricks come to mind.
-- Jeff Walter
On 7/17/2013 1:59 PM, Alex Harrowell wrote:
On 15/07/13 01:09, Tony Patti wrote:
TWELVE years ago (press release March 20 2001), Comcast deployed Linux-based Sun Cobalt Qube appliances as CPE with their business-class Internet service, these provided firewall security, web caching, optional content filtering, an e-mail server, a web server, file and print servers.
This is a good idea.
.
Whistle Interjet -- circa 1995
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:36:19 -0700, Roy said:
On 7/17/2013 1:59 PM, Alex Harrowell wrote:
On 15/07/13 01:09, Tony Patti wrote:
TWELVE years ago (press release March 20 2001), Comcast deployed Linux-based Sun Cobalt Qube appliances as CPE with their business-class Internet service, these provided firewall security, web caching, optional content filtering, an e-mail server, a web server, file and print servers.
This is a good idea.
Whistle Interjet -- circa 1995
Of course, in 1995, if you gave a customer something like that, there was still a reasonably good chance that doing so wouldn't generate a ton of support calls, because if they were a customer at all, they probably had a clue. These days, it seems giving a customer anything more user-servicable than an iPad is just asking for trouble...
Ohh we had some of those at JVNCNet, a real piece of crap. -Jorge On Jul 17, 2013, at 6:56 PM, Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:36:19 -0700, Roy said:
On 7/17/2013 1:59 PM, Alex Harrowell wrote:
On 15/07/13 01:09, Tony Patti wrote:
TWELVE years ago (press release March 20 2001), Comcast deployed Linux-based Sun Cobalt Qube appliances as CPE with their business-class Internet service, these provided firewall security, web caching, optional content filtering, an e-mail server, a web server, file and print servers.
This is a good idea.
Whistle Interjet -- circa 1995
Of course, in 1995, if you gave a customer something like that, there was still a reasonably good chance that doing so wouldn't generate a ton of support calls, because if they were a customer at all, they probably had a clue.
These days, it seems giving a customer anything more user-servicable than an iPad is just asking for trouble...
* Alex Rubenstein (alex@corp.nac.net) wrote:
Ohh we had some of those at JVNCNet, a real piece of crap.
Wow. JVNCnet. Haven't heard that name in a long, long time.
Same here. I worked there from September 1987 through the closure in june of 1990. Whatever happened to Sergio Heker?
RIP Sir Alec Guinness.
Stephen
JVNCNet survived and became operated by Global Enterprise Services, the company Sergio created to spin off the network out of Princeton University, GES was acquired by Verio in 1997 and Sergio moved to start another company. Last message I've got from him said he was in Panama providing consulting in network security or something like that. The Princeton office was closed by Verio as far as I remember in 2003. -Jorge On Jul 17, 2013, at 9:16 PM, Gordon Cook <cook@cookreport.com> wrote:
* Alex Rubenstein (alex@corp.nac.net) wrote:
Ohh we had some of those at JVNCNet, a real piece of crap.
Wow. JVNCnet. Haven't heard that name in a long, long time.
Same here. I worked there from September 1987 through the closure in june of 1990. Whatever happened to Sergio Heker?
On Wed, 2013-07-17 at 16:36 -0700, Roy wrote:
On 7/17/2013 1:59 PM, Alex Harrowell wrote:
On 15/07/13 01:09, Tony Patti wrote:
TWELVE years ago (press release March 20 2001), Comcast deployed Linux-based Sun Cobalt Qube appliances as CPE with their business-class Internet service, these provided firewall security, web caching, optional content filtering, an e-mail server, a web server, file and print servers.
This is a good idea.
.
Whistle Interjet -- circa 1995
I still have one of the T-Shirts Julian gave somewhere..... --Chris
participants (15)
-
Alain Hebert -
Alex Harrowell -
Alex Rubenstein -
Bryan Fields -
Chris Boyd -
Gordon Cook -
Jeff Walter -
jim deleskie -
Jorge Amodio -
Nick Khamis -
Patrick W. Gilmore -
Roy -
Stephen Frost -
Tony Patti -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu