In message <Pine.GSO.4.40.0112290239530.29284-100000@clifden.donelan.com>, Sean Donelan writes:
On Sun, 23 Dec 2001, Peter Galbavy wrote:
You misunderstand. Which operators will offer this (backed by some underwritten insurance) in an effort to be better than the competition ?
Buying car insurance doesn't alter the chances of your car breaking down on a long trip. Insurance doesn't alter the chances of something bad happening. Driver training, seat belts, and spare tires are things which can reduce risk.
Yes, but insurance companies often move in and set certain behavioral requirements as a coverage requirement, just to cut their own payouts. To give just a couple of examples, both Underwriters' Laboratories and the National Electrical Code are spinoffs of the insurance industry. To return to your analogy, maybe you can only buy car insurance, or buy it at a reasonable rate, if you first bring your car in for a checkup and replace the bald tires. --Steve Bellovin, http://www.research.att.com/~smb Full text of "Firewalls" book now at http://www.wilyhacker.com
On Sat, 29 Dec 2001, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:
Yes, but insurance companies often move in and set certain behavioral requirements as a coverage requirement, just to cut their own payouts. To give just a couple of examples, both Underwriters' Laboratories and the National Electrical Code are spinoffs of the insurance industry.
We don't wait for buildings to burn down before checking the electrical wiring. We don't take the electrician's word the wiring is correct. A building inspector checks the wiring before the walls are covered up. Its not perfect, and the inspectors can miss alot. But its proven to be more effective than trusting the builder will do the right thing. Where are the building inspectors for the Internet? As the insurance industry figured out, SLA's alone don't improve things. You have to inspect and verify. How can I inspect and verify a carrier did what they promised? If I pay for a diverse circuit, can I check it is in fact diverse? Is it a matter of money? The Chicago Board of Trade had a multi-day network failure. The New York Stock Exchange had a multi-day network failure. The NASDAQ had multiple shorter network failures. Essentially all of them traced back to carrier problems. You could hire me to inspect your network, but that doesn't scale.
Unnamed Administration sources reported that Sean Donelan said:
You could hire me to inspect your network, but that doesn't scale.
Damn... it *IS* Sean with the Black Backhoe. He's verifying the diversity, the only real way to.... -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Unnamed Administration sources reported that Sean Donelan said:
You could hire me to inspect your network, but that doesn't scale.
Damn... it *IS* Sean with the Black Backhoe. He's verifying the diversity, the only real way to....
May I suggest the Sean with the Black Backhoe as a permanent NANOG post, much like Black Rod and Silver Stick in the UK? It's so much more than sergeant-at-arms or bodyguard.
### On Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:45:25 -0500, "Howard C. Berkowitz" ### <hcb@clark.net> casually decided to expound upon nanog@merit.edu the ### following thoughts about "Re: Automated DLR conflict detection": HCB> >Unnamed Administration sources reported that Sean Donelan said: HCB> >> HCB> >> You could hire me to inspect your network, but that doesn't scale. HCB> > HCB> >Damn... it *IS* Sean with the Black Backhoe. He's verifying the HCB> >diversity, the only real way to.... HCB> > HCB> HCB> May I suggest the Sean with the Black Backhoe as a permanent NANOG HCB> post, much like Black Rod and Silver Stick in the UK? It's so much HCB> more than sergeant-at-arms or bodyguard. So is that who we'll be sending our "protection money"? |8^) -- /*===================[ Jake Khuon <khuon@NEEBU.Net> ]======================+ | Packet Plumber, Network Engineers /| / [~ [~ |) | | --------------- | | for Effective Bandwidth Utilisation / |/ [_ [_ |) |_| N E T W O R K S | +=========================================================================*/
On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Jake Khuon wrote:
HCB> >Damn... it *IS* Sean with the Black Backhoe. He's verifying the HCB> >diversity, the only real way to.... HCB> May I suggest the Sean with the Black Backhoe as a permanent NANOG HCB> post, much like Black Rod and Silver Stick in the UK? It's so much HCB> more than sergeant-at-arms or bodyguard.
So is that who we'll be sending our "protection money"? |8^)
Actually I would be much happy with a Certified something. I can't figure out why people want a CCIE to run their Juniper routers. But you can't get past the HR people without the right letters. Do you think we can talk Tony Li into providing certifications? A Certified Tony Li Engineer (CTLE) should be qualified to drive a router from any of Dr. Li's current or former employers.
Maybe we could have a NANOG T-Shirt with Sean on a backhoe at night checking for physical diversity? ;-) But then we'd have to add some city in the background with an entire force of backhoes gettin' busy cause when he comes to town some of the backhoes come out, but if Sean's actually on a backhoe himself they'd *all* come out of hiding at the same time and have a fiber party... ;-) :-) scott
On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Jake Khuon wrote:
HCB> >Damn... it *IS* Sean with the Black Backhoe. He's verifying the HCB> >diversity, the only real way to.... HCB> May I suggest the Sean with the Black Backhoe as a permanent NANOG HCB> post, much like Black Rod and Silver Stick in the UK? It's so much HCB> more than sergeant-at-arms or bodyguard.
On Sun, Dec 30, 2001 at 04:45:12PM -0500, Sean Donelan wrote:
On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, Jake Khuon wrote:
HCB> >Damn... it *IS* Sean with the Black Backhoe. He's verifying HCB> the >diversity, the only real way to.... May I suggest the HCB> Sean with the Black Backhoe as a permanent NANOG post, much HCB> like Black Rod and Silver Stick in the UK? It's so much more HCB> than sergeant-at-arms or bodyguard.
So is that who we'll be sending our "protection money"? |8^)
Actually I would be much happy with a Certified something. I can't figure out why people want a CCIE to run their Juniper routers.
Because a CCIE is about a lot more than knowing how to configure a Cisco device, very few will pass a CCIE test without _knowing_ the technology, and what they are doing, and that is the same regardless of the label on the equipment. /Jesper -- Jesper Skriver, jesper(at)skriver(dot)dk - CCIE #5456 Work: Network manager @ AS3292 (Tele Danmark DataNetworks) Private: FreeBSD committer @ AS2109 (A much smaller network ;-) One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them, One IP to bring them all and in the zone to bind them.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jesper Skriver" <jesper@skriver.dk>
Actually I would be much happy with a Certified something. I can't figure out why people want a CCIE to run their Juniper routers.
Because a CCIE is about a lot more than knowing how to configure a Cisco device, very few will pass a CCIE test without _knowing_ the technology, and what they are doing, and that is the same regardless of the label on the equipment.
That may have been true during your genre of CCIE's, but not with the latest round of CCIE's, my friends... you should see the posts I see on the ccie lab mailing lists. Its enough to scare even me, and I don't scare easily. The latest round of study materials is creating a "puppy mill" of CCIEs - inexperienced, money-hungry, power-conscious, and absolutely clueless. I wouldn't give most of them the enable passwords to my routers... _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Thus spake "EA Louie" <elouie@yahoo.com>
That may have been true during your genre of CCIE's, but not with the latest round of CCIE's, my friends... you should see the posts I see on the ccie lab mailing lists. Its enough to scare even me, and I don't scare easily.
The people studying for CCIE can be scary. The failure rate is extremely high, and most (but unfortunately not all) of the people who pass are reasonably clueful.
The latest round of study materials is creating a "puppy mill" of CCIEs - inexperienced, money-hungry, power-conscious, and absolutely clueless. I wouldn't give most of them the enable passwords to my routers...
A certification does not absolve you from due diligence during the hiring process. I've turned down a few CCIE applicants for lack of clue myself. S
Sean said:
(can't) figure out why people want a CCIE to run their Juniper routers.
Unlike MS-Something certification, CCIE certification is tough enough and practical enough that the annointed ones are often proven to be useful in any situation. Although I am an old *nix/Linux routing nutcase, I work with a young sponge that just got his CCIE and I am impressed with the foundation he has and his ability to apply it to a wide variety of equipment and scenerios. Should you find yourself driving around Chattanooga in a "stealth backhoe", even at 3am... beware of the rednecks living next door to the fiber. :) .~. meuon@geeklabs.com /V\ // \\ recycled thoughts and random electrons = email /( )\ ^`~'^
If I had to choose someone to work with, I'd take someone with tons of experience and especially a Cisco degree over a MS-style degree (Not just because it is Microsoft). Most MCSE classes and material (books) teach you how to pass the MCSE, not how to do well in the real world (Sort of like the SATs). In my Cisco classes, I learned a lot about routers and networking as whole, even more than I knew prior. Real world applications, like recovering from a lost enable password (You would not believe how many people configure a router then "forget" the enable password) are taught. Plus, once you learn one thing, it is very easy to port skills to something else. Like I can figure out most programs (especially GUIs), since they are all pretty similar to each other. - James -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of mike harrison Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 10:15 PM To: Sean Donelan Cc: Jake Khuon; nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Automated DLR conflict detection Sean said:
(can't) figure out why people want a CCIE to run their Juniper routers.
Unlike MS-Something certification, CCIE certification is tough enough and practical enough that the annointed ones are often proven to be useful in any situation. Although I am an old *nix/Linux routing nutcase, I work with a young sponge that just got his CCIE and I am impressed with the foundation he has and his ability to apply it to a wide variety of equipment and scenerios. Should you find yourself driving around Chattanooga in a "stealth backhoe", even at 3am... beware of the rednecks living next door to the fiber. :) .~. meuon@geeklabs.com /V\ // \\ recycled thoughts and random electrons = email /( )\ ^`~'^
On Sun, 30 Dec 2001, James wrote:
In my Cisco classes, I learned a lot about routers and networking as whole, even more than I knew prior. Real world applications, like recovering from a lost enable password (You would not believe how many people configure a router then "forget" the enable password) are taught.
How do you recover a password on a Juniper router? I think the CCIE and cisco training is wonderful. I took the CCIE lab and passed configuring all sorts of protocols like X.25, DECNET, and LAT which aren't included in the lab anymore. It is very good at teaching and testing vendor knowledge, like recovering a lost password. I just don't understand how a having a CCIE is related to operating a Juniper network. Neither Juniper nor Cisco gives credit for certification by the other. If you want to skip the first level support, you need that specific vendor's certification. Both certifications are designed so you must know the specific vendor's equipment in order to pass. If you have a Juniper backbone I would expected a HR department require a Juniper Certified Internet Expert. Do so few Juniper Certified Internet Experts exist that companies are forced to hire CCIE's instead of JCIE's? Would I be better getting a JCIE because there are rarer? I noticed several CCIE's rising to defend their certification, but not a single JCIE.
From: "Sean Donelan" <sean@donelan.com>
Do so few Juniper Certified Internet Experts exist that companies are forced to hire CCIE's instead of JCIE's? Would I be better getting a JCIE because there are rarer? I noticed several CCIE's rising to defend their certification, but not a single JCIE.
Considering how few JCIE's exist, that's not surprising. And they're probably all too busy fixing and designing networks to be monitoring NANOG ;-) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
forced to hire CCIE's instead of JCIE's? Would I be better getting a JCIE because there are rarer? I noticed several CCIE's rising to defend their certification, but not a single JCIE.
I would contend there are a few more CCIE's than JCIE's and in a real world large company hiring situation you face a few possible scenerios: 1. The commitee to revise job requirements has not met. 2. The manager requesting the position through HR is clueless. 3. HR is clueless, and just cut-and-pasted a similiar job ad. 4. They know exactly what they are doing, and the person they really want to hire happens to be CCIE, and they figure he/she can read the Juniper manuals until they get the JCIE. By the way.. I am thinking of using a Juniper M5 for a channelized DS3 interface to a local CLEC (serving data to frac T1 customers). Any good/bad comments? As for getting the JCIE because they are rarer.. that's just wrong. Get what you need and can use where you want to live. --Mike Harrison Rare (and now useless) certifications include: CBET #2750 (ASHE Certified BioMedical Electronics Technician) CCE #2750 (ASHE Certified Clinical Engineer) Irix Linear Phased Array Ultrasound Certified Technician Sharplan CO2 Laser Certified Technician GE 3 Phase X-Ray... ad infiniteum ad nauseum
Unlike MS-Something certification, CCIE certification is tough enough and practical enough that the annointed ones are often proven to be useful in any situation. Although I am an old *nix/Linux routing nutcase, I work with a young sponge that just got his CCIE and I am impressed with the foundation he has and his ability to apply it to a wide variety of equipment and scenerios.
"Ha ha ha ha ha". Sorry - but I have come across CCIEs that do *not* understand basic LAN / WAN issues, BGP ("that's like RIP/OSPF isn't it ?") and a whole range of similar stuff. I know that people always slip through, but please don't equate CCIE with 'independent' qualifications. (Independent as in vendor neutral, and to some extent technology neutral). Peter
participants (12)
-
David Lesher -
EA Louie -
Howard C. Berkowitz -
Jake Khuon -
James -
Jesper Skriver -
mike harrison -
Peter Galbavy -
scott -
Sean Donelan -
Stephen Sprunk -
Steven M. Bellovin