Re: BGP Security and PKI Hierarchies
Michael Dillon said:
The fees are not charged for past services that were received for free, only for future services.
So you are saying that legacy space holder who signed a memberhsip agreement would not owe the usual yearly fee associated with their legacy space holdings but only those fees associated with any future address space allocations/assignments? I imagine that would please the legacy space holders. Do you know that this would be the case? I'm not a registry canon law expert myself. --Sandy
On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 11:48:13AM -0500, Sandy Murphy wrote:
Michael Dillon said:
The fees are not charged for past services that were received for free, only for future services.
So you are saying that legacy space holder who signed a memberhsip agreement would not owe the usual yearly fee associated with their legacy space holdings but only those fees associated with any future address space allocations/assignments? I imagine that would please the legacy space holders.
Do you know that this would be the case? I'm not a registry canon law expert myself.
i believe Michael is extrapolating his ideal and not the actual practice at RIRs. --bill
--Sandy
The fees are not charged for past services that were received for free, only for future services.
i believe Michael is extrapolating his ideal and not the actual practice at RIRs.
Not at all. Past services are anything that was received for free in the past. Future services are anything that is received as a normal paid member of ARIN. The ARIN membership fee is determined by the size of the address allocation that was received in the past, but it is not a payment for past services. Why is this so hard for people to understand? If I received a copy of Windows 3.1 for free then I can use it forever without paying. But if I want to get a copy of Windows XP, then I must pay the normal fee for Windows XP. Microsoft will not charge me an additional fee over and above the normal fee that everyone else pays for XP. Many people registered .com domain names for free. Then one day, there was an annual fee. However, nobody was charged an annual fee for the PAST YEARS in which they had had free use of their .com domain name. The level of the playing field was raised, but it remained a level playing field. --Michael Dillon
The fees are not charged for past services that were received for free, only for future services.
So you are saying that legacy space holder who signed a memberhsip agreement would not owe the usual yearly fee associated with their legacy space holdings but only those fees associated with any future address space allocations/assignments?
Of course they would pay the normal membership fee. In ARIN, this fee is roughly related to the size of the address space holding, but only roughly. It is a flat fee for the annual membership subscription and it covers all the whois listings, changes to whois entries, in-addr.arpa hosting, ip6.arpa hosting, and new address allocations for the whole year. The fee is not directly related to the address holding, i.e. ARIN members do not pay a fee for the addresses which are allocated to them. The subscription fee is higher for larger allocations because larger organizations use more services more often. The holder of a class C only pays $1250 per year which seems a reasonable business expense for supporting the RIRs. And the holder of a class B would pay only $9,000 and a class A holder would pay the maximum rate of $18,000. It's hard to imagine an organization who can afford to run a network using BGP to announce a class C block and not be able to afford $1250 per year. --Michael Dillon
On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 10:21:53AM +0000, Michael.Dillon@btradianz.com wrote:
It's hard to imagine an organization who can afford to run a network using BGP to announce a class C block and not be able to afford $1250 per year.
Sounds like a failure of imagination to me. -- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> http://www.e-gerbil.net/ras GPG Key ID: 0xF8B12CBC (7535 7F59 8204 ED1F CC1C 53AF 4C41 5ECA F8B1 2CBC)
--- Richard A Steenbergen <ras@e-gerbil.net> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 10:21:53AM +0000, Michael.Dillon@btradianz.com wrote:
It's hard to imagine an organization who can
afford to run
a network using BGP to announce a class C block and not be able to afford $1250 per year.
Sounds like a failure of imagination to me.
The statement Michael forgot was "using PI space" - lots of "Bob's bait & tackle shop" types of operations use BGP to announce a /24 to two providers. I have yet to find an organization which is concerned about getting new PI space which would have a problem paying that amount per year. They may exist, but they're certainly not the majority of the groups looking for PI IP. David Barak Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise: http://www.listentothefranchise.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com
On 29-Nov-2005, at 09:30, David Barak wrote:
I have yet to find an organization which is concerned about getting new PI space which would have a problem
--- Joe Abley <jabley@isc.org> wrote: paying
that amount per year. They may exist,
They definitely exist.
Okay, I'll take your word for it - although given the other costs implied in an organization which has sufficiently robust connectivity to make PA space problematic, I'm a bit surprised. Perhaps these are non-profits? Even then, I would expect that $1200 per year is still much lower than the circuit costs... Maybe my imagination just isn't good enough: could you toss me an example-type of organization where that would be problematic? David Barak Need Geek Rock? Try The Franchise: http://www.listentothefranchise.com __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
On 29-Nov-2005, at 12:16, David Barak wrote:
Maybe my imagination just isn't good enough: could you toss me an example-type of organization where that would be problematic?
Oh, my mistake -- you're talking about new organisations looking to acquire PI space. I was talking about organisations who have grandfathered (and hence zero-fee) PI space. I don't have any examples of the former, and I tend to agree with your assessment for that. Joe
On Tue, 29 Nov 2005, Michael.Dillon@btradianz.com wrote:
It's hard to imagine an organization who can afford to run a network using BGP to announce a class C block and not be able to afford $1250 per year.
The Internet != for-profit-only corporate netspace. US$1250 may be little more than a urinal mint for businesses, but $1250 can be a steep yearly fee to tack on to nonprofits that are already paying for connectivity, equipment maintenance (of typically outdated equipment), and likely other services from their upstream(s). And since multihoming is the New Internet Insurance Policy[tm].... -- -- Todd Vierling <tv@duh.org> <tv@pobox.com> <todd@vierling.name>
It's hard to imagine an organization who can afford to run a network using BGP to announce a class C block and not be able to afford $1250 per year.
The Internet != for-profit-only corporate netspace.
In that case, the organization is not an ISP which means that they are not growing which means that they don't need as much of ARIN's services, therefore they can swap their class C block for an ARIN /24 and only pay $100 as an end user. Presumably ARIN could be convinced to waive the one-time initial allocation fee in this case since the initial allocation happened years ago. Then, having joined the club that 99% of us belong to, they won't have any problems with using newer services like BGP cert signing. --Michael Dillon
Michael.Dillon@btradianz.com wrote:
It's hard to imagine an organization who can afford to run a network using BGP to announce a class C block and not be able to afford $1250 per year.
The Internet != for-profit-only corporate netspace.
In that case, the organization is not an ISP which means that they are not growing which means that they don't need as much of ARIN's services, therefore they can swap their class C block for an ARIN /24 and only pay $100 as an end user. Presumably ARIN could be convinced to waive the one-time initial allocation fee in this case since the initial allocation happened years ago.
Then, having joined the club that 99% of us belong to, they won't have any problems with using newer services like BGP cert signing.
The problem is *because* they are not ISP and don't have a clue they'll use a lot of ARINs services. "Why doesn't this work, how do I do that..." RIPE started requiring the x-ncc-regid thing in email partly because of the newbie and clueless crowd. -- Andre
After reading this thread well after it has ended...why does it seem that a lot of folks equate "trust" with "paying money?" Trust isn't about who can pay what but maintaining a system that conveys trust does *cost* money. The RIRs are not-for-profit themselves. That doesn't mean service-for-no-fee. I don't see that an RIR has any obligation to speak on behalf of (in this case, issue certificates for) any other organization that holds IP space and has not established any arrangement with the RIR. On the other hand, any such organization cannot expect an RIR to do something for them for free. If the ISP industry wants there to be certificates for the so-called swamp space (badly enough), what would stop them from subsidizing the the work? -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Edward Lewis +1-571-434-5468 NeuStar 3 months to the next trip. I guess it's finally time to settle down and find a grocery store.
participants (9)
-
Andre Oppermann -
bmanning＠vacation.karoshi.com -
David Barak -
Edward Lewis -
Joe Abley -
Michael.Dillon＠btradianz.com -
Richard A Steenbergen -
Sandy Murphy -
Todd Vierling