Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 33, Issue 93
I believe that the vast majority of the legacy space is in fact in the US. RD
Not to stir an already boiling over pot and all, but is there any kind of report or documentation on releasing of space from countries other then the North American region?
I'd hate to think that the rest of the world thinks that the US should be the one to give up all their space so that they can continue to hand out space like candy...
-- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
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Message: 2 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 17:52:00 +0100 From: "Stephen D. Strowes" <sds@dcs.gla.ac.uk> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <1287593520.11548.15.camel@carney> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 17:40 +0100, John Curran wrote:
Also makes me wonder if there are historical versions of this registry available. If reclamation of large blocks such as this becomes commonplace, will many of the legacy allocations simply become footnotes? (In the registry document, as well as in history?)
This has already happened in many cases; address blocks previously held by US DoD, BBN, Stanford were returned, held for a period, and then reissued.
Indeed yes. And these returned blocks aren't noted in the IANA registry (for good reason I guess; the registry is meant to be current.) Is this historical information noted anywhere?
-S.
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Message: 3 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 10:06:33 -0700 From: Doug Barton <dougb@dougbarton.us> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: nanog@nanog.org Message-ID: <4CBF2199.4010700@dougbarton.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 10/20/2010 7:13 AM, Randy Bush wrote:
i think this is cool, but ...
ARIN will follow global policy at that time and return it to the global free pool or distribute the space to those organizations in the ARIN region with documented need, as appropriate.
i know the us has the world series, but global> arin region
I would like to join the chorus of applause for Interop's generosity. I agree with those who've said that this only buys us a little more time, but they did the right thing, and we should applaud them for that; along with the DOD and others who have returned their unneeded space.
As for the fact that the block was released to ARIN as opposed to going back in the free pool, the effect may ultimately be the same. Allocations from IANA to the RIRs happen under the policy posted at http://www.icann.org/en/general/allocation-IPv4-rirs.html. The determination of when to allocate a new /8 is based on the amount of free space that the RIR has on hand at the time of the request. There are 12 /8s remaining atm, and 5 of those will automatically be allocated 1 per RIR when the other 7 have been allocated under the normal policy. I am confident that ARIN will also do the right thing here and include the /8 from Interop in their free space calculation before requesting an allocation of one of the 7 /8s in the free pool.
hth,
Doug
--
Breadth of IT experience, and | Nothin' ever doesn't change, depth of knowledge in the DNS. | but nothin' changes much. Yours for the right price. :) | -- OK Go http://SupersetSolutions.com/
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Message: 4 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:34:22 -0400 From: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: Brielle Bruns <bruns@2mbit.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <62EADAE5-5D10-4749-AD1F-9343A457FC5A@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Oct 20, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Brielle Bruns wrote:
Not to stir an already boiling over pot and all, but is there any kind of
report or documentation on releasing of space from countries other then the North American region?
You're not going to find a lot of large allocations which are unused in other regions, predominantly because these allocations where made at the earliest time of the Internet to organizations that were mostly in the ARIN region.
I'd hate to think that the rest of the world thinks that the US should be the one to give up all their space so that they can continue to hand out space like candy...
While it is true that some regions seem to be experiencing a real surge in IPv4 demand recently, it's also important to remember that *all* of the address space is for the Internet community at large, based on documented need, on a first-come, first-serve basis. It's actually "global Internet address space"; this is a fundamental principle of the Internet Registry system as noted in RFC 2050.
/John
John Curran President and CEO ARIN
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Message: 5 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 13:41:19 -0400 From: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com> Subject: Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 33, Issue 91 To: nanog@nanog.org Message-ID: <AANLkTinuCQ+1X8xO-aDctU_GBPFfT6_ZFEGzb7G4p36p@mail.gmail.com<AANLkTinuCQ%2B1X8xO-aDctU_GBPFfT6_ZFEGzb7G4p36p@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
We all are waiving flags about the return of one solitary /8 to ARIN, (which is a good thing) but should we not waive flags about new v6 networks too?
Let us waive the flags also for the v6 adopters...I think we need to evangelize v6 even more than we are already doing.
RD
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:27:41 -0400 From: Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: Joel Esler <joel.esler@me.com> Cc: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net>, "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <AANLkTin4P826POmny_rNZvSZowkNih7zN1LMiFhAYQKN@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Joel Esler <joel.esler@me.com> wrote:
Now, if we could get everyone that has these gigantic /8's (or multiple of them) that aren't using them to give some back, that'd be great.
it's nice that interop did a nice thing here, but seriously, this is ~3 months of usage... there is no saving the move to v6, the bottom's going to fall out on or about june 2011 it seems.
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Message: 2 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:28:44 -0400 From: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org Operators Group" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <EBF47E07-EDC2-47F7-89EE-5D2165A741EF@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Oct 20, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Christopher Morrow wrote:
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:
Thank you Interop - for performing an outstanding act of altruism.
John, could you provide more details at this stage on how much address space was returned to ARIN?
less than 3 months supply at the going drain rate.
Not to be depressing, but a /8 (or 99% of one :-) is potentially less than one month's drain on the global IPv4 free pool, if one considers the allocations over the last 12 months to be predictive.
/John
John Curran President and CEO ARIN
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Message: 3 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:29:58 -0400 From: Curtis Maurand <cmaurand@xyonet.com> Subject: Re: Recommendations for Metro-Ethernet Equipment To: nanog@nanog.org Message-ID: <4CBF0AF6.9030207@xyonet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
I'd add Alcatel to that list.
On 10/20/2010 11:24 AM, Eric Merkel wrote:
I've been tasked with making a recommendation for the core and access equipment for a small metro-ethernet network. We're probably talking at max 200-300 subs split between two termination points. Most customers will probably be at speeds of 100M or less. We'd like the backbone to be 10G and be MPLS capable. That being said some of the companies we've been looking at are
Cisco
Extreme
Brocade
Adtran
Occam
Zhone
We're looking to build the network in a cost effective manner so we're not opposed to doing using aftermarket or refurbished equipment but we don't want to start off with equipment that has no future of expanding.
Any suggestions, success or horror stories are appreciated. ;)
Eric
=====
Eric Merkel
MetaLINK Technologies, Inc.
Email: merkel at metalink.net
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Message: 4 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:33:01 -0400 From: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org Operators Group" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <BB969AF1-E6DC-4E71-B3D7-A56DABDEB24B@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Oct 20, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Christopher Morrow wrote:
it's nice that interop did a nice thing here, but seriously, this is ~3 months of usage... there is no saving the move to v6, the bottom's going to fall out on or about june 2011 it seems.
I agree with Chris; this (and any other returns) won't change the IPv4 depletion/IPv6 deployment timeline substantially, but it's also true we have folks who are just now realizing IPv4 depletion is happening and returned address space may make the difference for those who need just a bit more time...
/John
John Curran President and CEO ARIN
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Message: 5 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:35:19 -0400 From: Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org Operators Group" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <AANLkTimgWaS1Vk+WVeXDEkL8srCBE6wxEpLOaV8Ez1Hv@mail.gmail.com<AANLkTimgWaS1Vk%2BWVeXDEkL8srCBE6wxEpLOaV8Ez1Hv@mail.gmail.com> <AANLkTimgWaS1Vk%2BWVeXDEkL8srCBE6wxEpLOaV8Ez1Hv@mail.gmail.com<AANLkTimgWaS1Vk%252BWVeXDEkL8srCBE6wxEpLOaV8Ez1Hv@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 11:28 AM, John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> wrote:
On Oct 20, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Christopher Morrow wrote:
less than 3 months supply at the going drain rate.
Not to be depressing, but a /8 (or 99% of one :-) is potentially less than one month's drain on the global IPv4 free pool, if one considers the allocations over the last 12 months to be predictive.
yes, sorry.. since this was returned to ARIN, I assumed the ARIN region drain rate.
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Message: 6 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:37:55 -0400 From: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org Operators Group" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <CC71D159-C46E-49C7-9A8B-6A99508CCB89@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Oct 20, 2010, at 11:24 AM, Jeroen Massar wrote:
The problem with that is indeed in that little part about "aren't using them", if even only 50% is in use because one allocated it quite sparsely you won't be able to quickly clean it up and return it.
Correct. It might make sense to do so, if you could recover the costs of the work involved. This is the reasoning behind the Specified Transfer policy that was recently adopted; it allows (once we're at depletion) for parties to free up address space and get compensated. It's goal is not to provide a windfall for those holding unused space; in theory, those with unused address space should be returning it already if they can easily do so.
One can of course wonder if they are supposed to use that or not. The fact that they do not have reverse DNS delegation for it says quite a bit already of course.
One of the other benefits of improved utilization for returned space is less space which is "sitting idle" and available to be hijacked.
/John
John Curran President and CEO ARIN
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Message: 7 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:40:57 -0400 From: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org Operators Group" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <DBBFDC71-10D2-45CE-86C5-08496337CD02@arin.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Oct 20, 2010, at 11:35 AM, Christopher Morrow wrote:
yes, sorry.. since this was returned to ARIN, I assumed the ARIN region drain rate.
Ah, good point. It may end up in the global pool, so comparison to either drain rate is quite reasonable.
/John
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Message: 8 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:45:20 -0400 From: Joe Maimon <jmaimon@ttec.com> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: Christopher Morrow <morrowc.lists@gmail.com> Cc: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net>, "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <4CBF0E90.6070403@ttec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Christopher Morrow wrote:
On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 10:43 AM, Nick Hilliard<nick@foobar.org> wrote:
Thank you Interop - for performing an outstanding act of altruism.
John, could you provide more details at this stage on how much address space was returned to ARIN?
less than 3 months supply at the going drain rate.
So would it be more logical for all those willing to return do so only after depletion when the impact and resulting appreciation is likely to be greater?
Plus, those less altruistic could weigh the options better after real value is associated with the scarce resource.
Joe
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Message: 9 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:02:16 -0400 From: Francois Menard <francois@menards.ca> Subject: Re: Recommendations for Metro-Ethernet Equipment To: Curtis Maurand <cmaurand@xyonet.com> Cc: nanog@nanog.org Message-ID: <B861A05D-DB46-4E45-8818-A6C0C6356DB1@menards.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
We just bought a fair amount of MRV Optiswitches for that same purpose.
F.
On 2010-10-20, at 11:29 AM, Curtis Maurand wrote:
I'd add Alcatel to that list.
On 10/20/2010 11:24 AM, Eric Merkel wrote:
I've been tasked with making a recommendation for the core and access equipment for a small metro-ethernet network. We're probably talking at max 200-300 subs split between two termination points. Most customers will probably be at speeds of 100M or less. We'd like the backbone to be 10G and be MPLS capable. That being said some of the companies we've been looking at are
Cisco
Extreme
Brocade
Adtran
Occam
Zhone
We're looking to build the network in a cost effective manner so we're not opposed to doing using aftermarket or refurbished equipment but we don't want to start off with equipment that has no future of expanding.
Any suggestions, success or horror stories are appreciated. ;)
Eric
=====
Eric Merkel
MetaLINK Technologies, Inc.
Email: merkel at metalink.net
------------------------------
Message: 10 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:03:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Justin M. Streiner" <streiner@cluebyfour.org> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1010201154270.17786@whammy.cluebyfour.org> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Wed, 20 Oct 2010, Joel Esler wrote:
Now, if we could get everyone that has these gigantic /8's (or multiple of them) that aren't using them to give some back, that'd be great.
Thank you interop for setting the example.
Sure, it would be a nice gesture if MIT/HP/Ford/Xerox/Halliburton/etc gave back the chunks of the /8s they weren't using, but it wouldn't significantly affect when the IPv4 well runs dry. Also, without knowing how those organizations have used the space internally, such an altruistic gesture could also come at the cost of having to de-aggregate a bunch of advertisements in BGP.
The law of diminishing returns comes into play. jms
On Oct 20, 2010, at 10:43 AM, Nick Hilliard wrote:
Thank you Interop - for performing an outstanding act of altruism.
John, could you provide more details at this stage on how much address space was returned to ARIN?
Nick
FYI, /John
---- https://www.arin.net/announcements/2010/20101020.html
Posted: Wednesday, 20 October 2010
ARIN today recognizes Interop, an organization with a long-standing
On 20/10/2010 14:34, John Curran wrote: presence in the Internet industry, for returning its unneeded Internet Protocol version 4 (IPv4) address space.
Interop was originally allocated a /8 before ARIN's existence and the
availability of smaller-sized address blocks. The organization recently realized it was only using a small portion of its address block and that returning the remainder to ARIN would be for the greater good of the Internet community.
ARIN will accept the returned space and not reissue it for a short
period, per existing operational procedure. After the hold period, ARIN will follow global policy at that time and return it to the global free pool or distribute the space to those organizations in the ARIN region with documented need, as appropriate.
With less than 5% of the IPv4 address space left in the global free
pool, ARIN warns that Interop's return will not significantly extend the life of IPv4. ARIN continues to emphasize the need for all Internet stakeholders to adopt the next generation of Internet Protocol, IPv6.
Regards,
Communications and Member Services American Registry for Internet Numbers
-- Joel Esler http://www.joelesler.net
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Message: 11 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:04:29 -0400 From: Ernie Rubi <ernesto@cs.fiu.edu> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: Joe Maimon <jmaimon@ttec.com> Cc: John Curran <jcurran@arin.net>, "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <107A762E-D0A0-4CBA-92D8-376FCD6E266B@cs.fiu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I don't think ARIN (or any other RIR) wants people to think this way.
Appreciation and value are words that most folks at ICANN don't want network engineers to associate with IP addresses.
"The real value is in routing"; is the party line.
STLS to me is kind of double speak, ARIN says: "this isn't a capital resource", but yet if you go through us and list your 'unused' blocks in this space, we don't care what financial transaction happens behind the scenes.
Maybe John can shed more light on this.
For some background, go over to the Internet-history mailing list, which included a very lively discussion of "ownership interest" in IP addresses.
Ernie
On Oct 20, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Joe Maimon wrote:
So would it be more logical for all those willing to return do so only
after depletion when the impact and resulting appreciation is likely to be greater?
Plus, those less altruistic could weigh the options better after real
value is associated with the scarce resource.
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Message: 6 Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2010 11:53:12 -0600 From: Brielle Bruns <bruns@2mbit.com> Subject: Re: ARIN recognizes Interop for return of more than 99% of 45/8 address block To: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <4CBF2C88.1070603@2mbit.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 10/20/10 11:34 AM, John Curran wrote:
On Oct 20, 2010, at 12:47 PM, Brielle Bruns wrote:
Not to stir an already boiling over pot and all, but is there any kind of report or documentation on releasing of space from countries other then the North American region?
You're not going to find a lot of large allocations which are unused in other regions, predominantly because these allocations where made at the earliest time of the Internet to organizations that were mostly in the ARIN region.
True, I didn't take that into account. :)
I'd hate to think that the rest of the world thinks that the US should be the one to give up all their space so that they can continue to hand out space like candy... While it is true that some regions seem to be experiencing a real surge in IPv4 demand recently, it's also important to remember that*all* of the address space is for the Internet community at large, based on documented need, on a first-come, first-serve basis. It's actually "global Internet address space"; this is a fundamental principle of the Internet Registry system as noted in RFC 2050.
Understood, I'm just expressing concern over the current situation of IPv4 exhaustion. As a spam fighter, I tend to see bursts of spam from newly allocated space in various regions which leaves me scratching my head as to why some places keep asking for more space and getting it so easily.
-- Brielle Bruns The Summit Open Source Development Group http://www.sosdg.org / http://www.ahbl.org
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