Finding information about metro private line service in downtown SF
Hello, I am investigating the options for linking up a new office to our (coincidentally) close datacenter in downtown San Francisco. Both locations are SOMA and within about 10 minutes walking of each other. Calling SBC provided me with a rather clueless person telling me all about ATM, Frame Relay and other options I don't want. To his credit, I believe I may have been defining what I want incorrectly. Since both areas are well within the same LATA (do people say that anymore?) I am simply looking for some sort of private line service be it fiber or copper. Who are the providers local to the area? Is there any way of finding what is in the ground around me? (I know UPN Networks is in between our offices so I am confident there is fiber or copper all around us.) What are the easiest options for this sort of thing? What kind of pricing might we be looking at? To give some perspective, we push a significant amount of bandwidth through our datacenter such that if the costs work out we would prefer a private line into our datacenter (for many reasons including cost, internet speed in the office, ability to have a backend entrance to our network for "offsite" backups, etc.). We would also then just setup a DSL line or T1 for emergencies/failover.[1] Please reply offlist, thanks for any insight, Bill [1]: Our alternative is too just get a T1 with a DSL for manual failover but piping into our datacenter would provide a substantial number of benefits. (this is a small office with about 10 people all of whom can handle cold-swapping to DSL if ever needed...)
I have used PacBell's GIGAMAN service at a number of locations. Its basically "managed" fiber running GigE. -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Bill Garrison Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:32 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Finding information about metro private line service in downtown SF Hello, I am investigating the options for linking up a new office to our (coincidentally) close datacenter in downtown San Francisco. Both locations are SOMA and within about 10 minutes walking of each other. Calling SBC provided me with a rather clueless person telling me all about ATM, Frame Relay and other options I don't want. To his credit, I believe I may have been defining what I want incorrectly. Since both areas are well within the same LATA (do people say that anymore?) I am simply looking for some sort of private line service be it fiber or copper. Who are the providers local to the area? Is there any way of finding what is in the ground around me? (I know UPN Networks is in between our offices so I am confident there is fiber or copper all around us.) What are the easiest options for this sort of thing? What kind of pricing might we be looking at? To give some perspective, we push a significant amount of bandwidth through our datacenter such that if the costs work out we would prefer a private line into our datacenter (for many reasons including cost, internet speed in the office, ability to have a backend entrance to our network for "offsite" backups, etc.). We would also then just setup a DSL line or T1 for emergencies/failover.[1] Please reply offlist, thanks for any insight, Bill [1]: Our alternative is too just get a T1 with a DSL for manual failover but piping into our datacenter would provide a substantial number of benefits. (this is a small office with about 10 people all of whom can handle cold-swapping to DSL if ever needed...)
Oops Forgot my Sig Roy Engehausen Roy wrote:
I have used PacBell's GIGAMAN service at a number of locations. Its basically "managed" fiber running GigE.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Bill Garrison Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:32 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Finding information about metro private line service in downtown SF
Hello,
I am investigating the options for linking up a new office to our (coincidentally) close datacenter in downtown San Francisco. Both locations are SOMA and within about 10 minutes walking of each other.
Calling SBC provided me with a rather clueless person telling me all about ATM, Frame Relay and other options I don't want. To his credit, I believe I may have been defining what I want incorrectly.
Since both areas are well within the same LATA (do people say that anymore?) I am simply looking for some sort of private line service be it fiber or copper.
Who are the providers local to the area? Is there any way of finding what is in the ground around me? (I know UPN Networks is in between our offices so I am confident there is fiber or copper all around us.)
What are the easiest options for this sort of thing? What kind of pricing might we be looking at?
To give some perspective, we push a significant amount of bandwidth through our datacenter such that if the costs work out we would prefer a private line into our datacenter (for many reasons including cost, internet speed in the office, ability to have a backend entrance to our network for "offsite" backups, etc.). We would also then just setup a DSL line or T1 for emergencies/failover.[1]
Please reply offlist, thanks for any insight, Bill
[1]: Our alternative is too just get a T1 with a DSL for manual failover but piping into our datacenter would provide a substantial number of benefits. (this is a small office with about 10 people all of whom can handle cold-swapping to DSL if ever needed...)
Can you get roof rights at both locations? If so, can you stand on one roof and see the other? If yes, go wireless. You will have the capital cost upfront but no monthly fees to pay to your friendly telco of choice each month. There are plenty of companies that manafacture telco quality radios for instances like this. Proxim, Alavarion, P-Com, RadioLAN, just to name a few. -Mike On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:41:29 -0700, Roy <garlic@garlic.com> wrote:
Oops Forgot my Sig
Roy Engehausen
Roy wrote:
I have used PacBell's GIGAMAN service at a number of locations. Its basically "managed" fiber running GigE.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Bill Garrison Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:32 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Finding information about metro private line service in downtown SF
Hello,
I am investigating the options for linking up a new office to our (coincidentally) close datacenter in downtown San Francisco. Both locations are SOMA and within about 10 minutes walking of each other.
Calling SBC provided me with a rather clueless person telling me all about ATM, Frame Relay and other options I don't want. To his credit, I believe I may have been defining what I want incorrectly.
Since both areas are well within the same LATA (do people say that anymore?) I am simply looking for some sort of private line service be it fiber or copper.
Who are the providers local to the area? Is there any way of finding what is in the ground around me? (I know UPN Networks is in between our offices so I am confident there is fiber or copper all around us.)
What are the easiest options for this sort of thing? What kind of pricing might we be looking at?
To give some perspective, we push a significant amount of bandwidth through our datacenter such that if the costs work out we would prefer a private line into our datacenter (for many reasons including cost, internet speed in the office, ability to have a backend entrance to our network for "offsite" backups, etc.). We would also then just setup a DSL line or T1 for emergencies/failover.[1]
Please reply offlist, thanks for any insight, Bill
[1]: Our alternative is too just get a T1 with a DSL for manual failover but piping into our datacenter would provide a substantial number of benefits. (this is a small office with about 10 people all of whom can handle cold-swapping to DSL if ever needed...)
The Corning, FreeLink Optical Transport System looked pretty good as well if you have the money for it. Handles most weather, with the exception of fog. http://www.corningcablesystems.com/web/news/press97.nsf/ehtml|ehtml/bc1e7d41f445a29d85256c07004a4b67?opendocument On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Mike Lyon wrote:
Can you get roof rights at both locations? If so, can you stand on one roof and see the other? If yes, go wireless. You will have the capital cost upfront but no monthly fees to pay to your friendly telco of choice each month. There are plenty of companies that manafacture telco quality radios for instances like this. Proxim, Alavarion, P-Com, RadioLAN, just to name a few.
-Mike
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:41:29 -0700, Roy <garlic@garlic.com> wrote:
Oops Forgot my Sig
Roy Engehausen
Roy wrote:
I have used PacBell's GIGAMAN service at a number of locations. Its basically "managed" fiber running GigE.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Bill Garrison Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:32 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Finding information about metro private line service in downtown SF
Hello,
I am investigating the options for linking up a new office to our (coincidentally) close datacenter in downtown San Francisco. Both locations are SOMA and within about 10 minutes walking of each other.
Calling SBC provided me with a rather clueless person telling me all about ATM, Frame Relay and other options I don't want. To his credit, I believe I may have been defining what I want incorrectly.
Since both areas are well within the same LATA (do people say that anymore?) I am simply looking for some sort of private line service be it fiber or copper.
Who are the providers local to the area? Is there any way of finding what is in the ground around me? (I know UPN Networks is in between our offices so I am confident there is fiber or copper all around us.)
What are the easiest options for this sort of thing? What kind of pricing might we be looking at?
To give some perspective, we push a significant amount of bandwidth through our datacenter such that if the costs work out we would prefer a private line into our datacenter (for many reasons including cost, internet speed in the office, ability to have a backend entrance to our network for "offsite" backups, etc.). We would also then just setup a DSL line or T1 for emergencies/failover.[1]
Please reply offlist, thanks for any insight, Bill
[1]: Our alternative is too just get a T1 with a DSL for manual failover but piping into our datacenter would provide a substantial number of benefits. (this is a small office with about 10 people all of whom can handle cold-swapping to DSL if ever needed...)
Wireless is a great option, if it's an option at all - I would just make sure to get a licensed link so you don't worry about getting knocked of the air by some rogue interferer. In fact, I've found a source for 39-gig radios (if the shot is less than 1.5 miles over the air) for about $3K. Contact me off-list for that information (or wireless in general). -Charlie -----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Rosowski Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 8:37 AM To: Mike Lyon Cc: Roy; North American Network Operators Group Subject: Re: Finding information about metro private line service in downtown SF The Corning, FreeLink Optical Transport System looked pretty good as well if you have the money for it. Handles most weather, with the exception of fog. http://www.corningcablesystems.com/web/news/press97.nsf/ehtml|ehtml/bc1e7d41 f445a29d85256c07004a4b67?opendocument On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Mike Lyon wrote:
Can you get roof rights at both locations? If so, can you stand on one roof and see the other? If yes, go wireless. You will have the capital cost upfront but no monthly fees to pay to your friendly telco of choice each month. There are plenty of companies that manafacture telco quality radios for instances like this. Proxim, Alavarion, P-Com, RadioLAN, just to name a few.
-Mike
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:41:29 -0700, Roy <garlic@garlic.com> wrote:
Oops Forgot my Sig
Roy Engehausen
Roy wrote:
I have used PacBell's GIGAMAN service at a number of locations. Its basically "managed" fiber running GigE.
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Bill Garrison Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 7:32 PM To: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Finding information about metro private line service in downtown SF
Hello,
I am investigating the options for linking up a new office to our (coincidentally) close datacenter in downtown San Francisco. Both locations are SOMA and within about 10 minutes walking of each other.
Calling SBC provided me with a rather clueless person telling me all about ATM, Frame Relay and other options I don't want. To his credit, I believe I may have been defining what I want incorrectly.
Since both areas are well within the same LATA (do people say that anymore?) I am simply looking for some sort of private line service be it fiber or copper.
Who are the providers local to the area? Is there any way of finding what is in the ground around me? (I know UPN Networks is in between our offices so I am confident there is fiber or copper all around us.)
What are the easiest options for this sort of thing? What kind of pricing might we be looking at?
To give some perspective, we push a significant amount of bandwidth through our datacenter such that if the costs work out we would prefer a private line into our datacenter (for many reasons including cost, internet speed in the office, ability to have a backend entrance to our network for "offsite" backups, etc.). We would also then just setup a DSL line or T1 for emergencies/failover.[1]
Please reply offlist, thanks for any insight, Bill
[1]: Our alternative is too just get a T1 with a DSL for manual failover but piping into our datacenter would provide a substantial number of benefits. (this is a small office with about 10 people all of whom can handle cold-swapping to DSL if ever needed...)
"Charlie Khanna - NextWeb" <charlie@nextweb.net> writes:
Wireless is a great option, if it's an option at all - I would just make sure to get a licensed link so you don't worry about getting knocked of the air by some rogue interferer.
Licensed offers no such guarantee; all it offers is some degree of recourse if/when you encounter interference. The onus for finding and tracking down the interferer, identifying them, and filing a complaint with the FCC still rests with the licensee. Hope you remembered to fill out the coordination responses during the comment period (and depending on the band you're operating on, you could get a lot of 'em)... A site survey with appropriate spectrum analysis equipment (preferably connected to antennas that have similar gain characteristics to the one you propose to use, pointed in the direction of your path) is a good first step. You may discover that UNII serves your needs completely. No, it's not a guarantee that things won't change in the future,
In fact, I've found a source for 39-gig radios (if the shot is less than 1.5 miles over the air) for about $3K.
Thanks to our pals at Winstar's demise and Advanced Radio Telecom's reorganization, such things are commonplace. Intrepid souls with friends in the real estate business may be able to get 'em for the cost of removal. Don't forget to coordinate your licensing (these are NOT part-15 radios as Charlie pointed out); ART's successor organization First Avenue Networks does licensing for $500/link/year. http://www.firstavenet.com/ ---Rob
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Jeff Rosowski wrote:
The Corning, FreeLink Optical Transport System looked pretty good as well if you have the money for it. Handles most weather, with the exception of fog.
Using FSO in San Francisco is almost impossible :) There are way too many foggy days, I've watched links go up and down when fog rolls down the street. If you're looking at wireless, the only real option is 38Ghz (if you can get the license) because of all of the 802.11x pollution.
Depends on the distance and what antennas you are using. If it's a short hop (which it sounds like it is) and you have very directional antennae, you can usually avoid most of the interference, especially if engineered correctly with frequency coordination (BANC) and checking of the frequencies with a spectrum analyzer before hand using the the antennas you plan to use (like stated earlier in this thread). But of course, stear away from the 2.4 Ghz band, look at 5 Ghz and beyond. -Mike On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 21:56:37 -0700 (PDT), Tom (UnitedLayer) <tom@unitedlayer.com> wrote:
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004, Jeff Rosowski wrote:
The Corning, FreeLink Optical Transport System looked pretty good as well if you have the money for it. Handles most weather, with the exception of fog.
Using FSO in San Francisco is almost impossible :) There are way too many foggy days, I've watched links go up and down when fog rolls down the street.
If you're looking at wireless, the only real option is 38Ghz (if you can get the license) because of all of the 802.11x pollution.
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:32:15 -0700, Bill Garrison <william.lloyd.garrison@gmail.com> wrote:
Calling SBC provided me with a rather clueless person telling me all about ATM, Frame Relay and other options I don't want. To his credit, I believe I may have been defining what I want incorrectly. Since both areas are well within the same LATA (do people say that anymore?) I am simply looking for some sort of private line service be it fiber or copper.
The answer is extremely dependent on how much bandwidth you want. In some areas you can still buy dry copper and run whatever you want on it, and in many areas you can also buy dark fiber and light it yourself, but normally you're looking at having a carrier running some Layer 1 protocol and maybe Layer 2 protocol on it. Depending on the speed you want, there are different protocols that are easy for various carriers to run. ("Significant" isn't enough detail....) Most carriers find T1s pretty easy to provide; some find T3 or OC3 easy while others prefer Layer 2 solutions for speeds above T1. I'm not surprised by SBC's person proposing ATM and Frame; they use those for a fairly wide range of speeds. A number of carriers also use Ethernets of various speeds (full or fractional), and some people will sell you "transparent LAN service" that's really a bridged Ethernet edge interface with ATM underneath.
participants (8)
-
Bill Garrison -
Bill Stewart -
Charlie Khanna - NextWeb -
Jeff Rosowski -
Mike Lyon -
Robert E.Seastrom -
Roy -
Tom (UnitedLayer)