Announcing: "dumpsterfire", the mailing list for IoT security/privacy issues
The "dumpsterfire" mailing list is for the discussion of security and privacy issues related to the IoT (Internet of Things). Arguably, the entire IoT *is* a security and privacy issue, but we'll get to that in good time. If you want to join, you can either use the list's web page: http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/dumpsterfire or the list's subscription/unsubscription address: dumpsterfire-request@firemountain.net The list is public and so is its archive. ---rsk
Unfortunately I don’t see this as having very much connectivity where I am at. host firemountain.net firemountain.net has address 207.114.3.55 firemountain.net mail is handled by 10 taos.firemountain.net. firemountain.net mail is handled by 20 ukiah.firemountain.net. host www.firemountain.net www.firemountain.net has address 207.114.3.55 Sending 5, 100-byte ICMP Echos to 207.114.3.55, timeout is 2 seconds: !.... Success rate is 20 percent (1/5), round-trip min/avg/max = 51/51/51 ms Tracing the route to firemountain.net (207.114.3.55) 1 <redacted> 0 msec 0 msec 0 msec 2 142.254.152.249 9 msec 9 msec 17 msec 3 ae62.nwblwi1801h.midwest.rr.com (24.164.241.145) 16 msec 16 msec 9 msec 4 be63.milzwift01r.midwest.rr.com (65.31.112.122) 25 msec 16 msec 17 msec 5 be40.clmkohpe01r.midwest.rr.com (65.25.137.109) 25 msec 25 msec 34 msec 6 be1.clmkohpe02r.midwest.rr.com (65.29.1.35) 34 msec 34 msec 25 msec 7 ae1.uparohgd01h.midwest.rr.com (24.33.161.209) 34 msec 42 msec 25 msec 8 69.23.10.160 34 msec 25 msec 25 msec 9 rrcs-98-102-146-106.central.biz.rr.com (98.102.146.106) 25 msec 34 msec 25 msec 10 xe-0-0-0.upa-core1.expedient.com (66.230.78.130) 33 msec 34 msec 25 msec 11 et-0-2-0.acm-core2.expedient.com (209.166.144.209) 34 msec 34 msec 34 msec 12 irb-4038.acm-core1.expedient.com (209.166.144.21) 33 msec 33 msec 25 msec 13 et-3-0-0.152-core2.expedient.com (66.230.78.194) 33 msec 33 msec 34 msec 14 ae2.152-core1.expedient.com (66.230.78.161) 42 msec 34 msec 34 msec 15 xe-0-3-0.fil-node.expedient.com (206.210.75.234) 42 msec 42 msec 51 msec 16 xe-0-3-0.1sc-node.expedient.com (216.230.108.246) 50 msec 42 msec 59 msec 17 ten1-6-2.tdp-core.expedient.com (216.230.108.229) 42 msec 42 msec 50 msec 18 firemountain.net (207.114.3.55) 50 msec 42 msec 51 msec HTH
On Jan 10, 2019, at 10:22, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
The "dumpsterfire" mailing list is for the discussion of security and privacy issues related to the IoT (Internet of Things). Arguably, the entire IoT *is* a security and privacy issue, but we'll get to that in good time.
If you want to join, you can either use the list's web page:
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/dumpsterfire
or the list's subscription/unsubscription address:
dumpsterfire-request@firemountain.net
The list is public and so is its archive.
---rsk
— J. Hellenthal The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 10:57:02AM -0600, J. Hellenthal via NANOG wrote:
Unfortunately I don???t see this as having very much connectivity where I am at.
It's not the best-connected or most powerful server, however it's been running a bunch of public/private mailing lists for many years and for that purpose, it's sufficed nicely. (That's one of the many major advantages of mailing lists over web forums: they don't need much in the way of connectivity, bandwidth, or horsepower.) Sure, I'd like to have bigger/better/faster/more, but since I'm paying for this out of my own pocket... ---rsk
Additionally, subscribe mail to the email address is bouncing. Anne Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law CEO/President, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification http://www.SuretyMail.com/ Certified Sender DNSBL here: iadb.isipp.com Info here: https://www.isipp.com/email-accreditation/for-isps/ GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consulting
On Jan 10, 2019, at 9:57 AM, J. Hellenthal via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Unfortunately I don’t see this as having very much connectivity where I am at.
host firemountain.net firemountain.net has address 207.114.3.55 firemountain.net mail is handled by 10 taos.firemountain.net. firemountain.net mail is handled by 20 ukiah.firemountain.net.
host www.firemountain.net www.firemountain.net has address 207.114.3.55
Sending 5, 100-byte ICMP Echos to 207.114.3.55, timeout is 2 seconds: !.... Success rate is 20 percent (1/5), round-trip min/avg/max = 51/51/51 ms
Tracing the route to firemountain.net (207.114.3.55)
1 <redacted> 0 msec 0 msec 0 msec 2 142.254.152.249 9 msec 9 msec 17 msec 3 ae62.nwblwi1801h.midwest.rr.com (24.164.241.145) 16 msec 16 msec 9 msec 4 be63.milzwift01r.midwest.rr.com (65.31.112.122) 25 msec 16 msec 17 msec 5 be40.clmkohpe01r.midwest.rr.com (65.25.137.109) 25 msec 25 msec 34 msec 6 be1.clmkohpe02r.midwest.rr.com (65.29.1.35) 34 msec 34 msec 25 msec 7 ae1.uparohgd01h.midwest.rr.com (24.33.161.209) 34 msec 42 msec 25 msec 8 69.23.10.160 34 msec 25 msec 25 msec 9 rrcs-98-102-146-106.central.biz.rr.com (98.102.146.106) 25 msec 34 msec 25 msec 10 xe-0-0-0.upa-core1.expedient.com (66.230.78.130) 33 msec 34 msec 25 msec 11 et-0-2-0.acm-core2.expedient.com (209.166.144.209) 34 msec 34 msec 34 msec 12 irb-4038.acm-core1.expedient.com (209.166.144.21) 33 msec 33 msec 25 msec 13 et-3-0-0.152-core2.expedient.com (66.230.78.194) 33 msec 33 msec 34 msec 14 ae2.152-core1.expedient.com (66.230.78.161) 42 msec 34 msec 34 msec 15 xe-0-3-0.fil-node.expedient.com (206.210.75.234) 42 msec 42 msec 51 msec 16 xe-0-3-0.1sc-node.expedient.com (216.230.108.246) 50 msec 42 msec 59 msec 17 ten1-6-2.tdp-core.expedient.com (216.230.108.229) 42 msec 42 msec 50 msec 18 firemountain.net (207.114.3.55) 50 msec 42 msec 51 msec
HTH
On Jan 10, 2019, at 10:22, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
The "dumpsterfire" mailing list is for the discussion of security and privacy issues related to the IoT (Internet of Things). Arguably, the entire IoT *is* a security and privacy issue, but we'll get to that in good time.
If you want to join, you can either use the list's web page:
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/dumpsterfire
or the list's subscription/unsubscription address:
dumpsterfire-request@firemountain.net
The list is public and so is its archive.
---rsk
—
J. Hellenthal
The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.
On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 8:23 AM Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
The "dumpsterfire" mailing list is for the discussion of security and privacy issues related to the IoT (Internet of Things). Arguably, the entire IoT *is* a security and privacy issue, but we'll get to that in good time.
If you want to join, you can either use the list's web page:
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/dumpsterfire
or the list's subscription/unsubscription address:
dumpsterfire-request@firemountain.net
The list is public and so is its archive.
* no HTTPS * archive is returning HTTP 403
A dumpster fire, indeed. On Fri, Jan 11, 2019, 11:26 AM Yang Yu <yang.yu.list@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 8:23 AM Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
The "dumpsterfire" mailing list is for the discussion of security and privacy issues related to the IoT (Internet of Things). Arguably, the entire IoT *is* a security and privacy issue, but we'll get to that in good time.
If you want to join, you can either use the list's web page:
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/dumpsterfire
or the list's subscription/unsubscription address:
dumpsterfire-request@firemountain.net
The list is public and so is its archive.
* no HTTPS * archive is returning HTTP 403
No HTTPS?!?! Where are the tar and feathers??!?!! This isn't something that needs HTTPS. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yang Yu" <yang.yu.list@gmail.com> To: "Rich Kulawiec" <rsk@gsp.org> Cc: "NANOG list" <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2019 10:23:31 AM Subject: Re: Announcing: "dumpsterfire", the mailing list for IoT security/privacy issues On Thu, Jan 10, 2019 at 8:23 AM Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote:
The "dumpsterfire" mailing list is for the discussion of security and privacy issues related to the IoT (Internet of Things). Arguably, the entire IoT *is* a security and privacy issue, but we'll get to that in good time.
If you want to join, you can either use the list's web page:
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/dumpsterfire
or the list's subscription/unsubscription address:
dumpsterfire-request@firemountain.net
The list is public and so is its archive.
* no HTTPS * archive is returning HTTP 403
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 10:30:57AM -0600, Mike Hammett wrote:
No HTTPS?!?! Where are the tar and feathers??!?!!
This isn't something that needs HTTPS. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
True, but our browser overlords would condemn it because they seem to believe that EVERYTHING should be guarded by https. - Brian
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 08:23:31AM -0800, Yang Yu wrote:
* no HTTPS
HTTPS isn't needed for this application. I'll probably add it anyway when I have a chance, but there are other things ahead of it.
* archive is returning HTTP 403
That is exactly what you should expect to see when a Mailman archive is empty, as it is for any new mailing list. Now it's not. So now you won't. ---rsk
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:17:09PM -0500, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 08:23:31AM -0800, Yang Yu wrote:
* no HTTPS
HTTPS isn't needed for this application. I'll probably add it anyway when I have a chance, but there are other things ahead of it.
I respectfully disagree: http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/options/dumpsterfire/bofh@example.com asks for a "password" which is then transported over clear text. The year is 2019 and there's always letsencrypt SSL certs. Admittedly, mailman does send you the password in clear text over SMTP if you ask for it. -andreas To borrow a quote: The 'S' in IoT stands for 'Security'.
On 1/11/2019 1:11 PM, Andreas Ott wrote:
Admittedly, mailman does send you the password in clear text over SMTP if you ask for it
but if done right, fwiw,, wouldn't that be sent over SMTP using TLS encryption? (but, then again, that ALSO requires a certificate!) -- Rob McEwen, invaluement
On 12 Jan 2019, at 6:36 am, Töma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.com> wrote:
11 Jan. 2019 г., 22:33 Rob McEwen <rob@invaluement.com>:
but if done right, fwiw,, wouldn't that be sent over SMTP using TLS encryption
So STARTTLS strip is not a problem anymore?
If you deploy DANE (client and server sides) then stripping STARTTLS is ineffective for the target domain. We (isc.org) have but gmail.com hasn’t (server side at least). On could be asking why you are using gmail.com when they don’t care enough to signal to the world that STARTTLS is supported and should be there in the EHLO. % dig mx isc.org +dnssec ;; BADCOOKIE, retrying. ; <<>> DiG 9.13.1+hotspot+add-prefetch+marka <<>> mx isc.org +dnssec ;; global options: +cmd ;; Got answer: ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 4910 ;; flags: qr rd ra ad; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 3, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 13 ;; OPT PSEUDOSECTION: ; EDNS: version: 0, flags: do; udp: 4096 ; COOKIE: bfabca20a2ed6fe032fae4e75c38f7eecca21769def0a3e3 (good) ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;isc.org. IN MX ;; ANSWER SECTION: isc.org. 7140 IN MX 20 mx.ams1.isc.org. isc.org. 7140 IN MX 10 mx.pao1.isc.org. isc.org. 7140 IN RRSIG MX 5 2 7200 20190206233314 20190107233314 19923 isc.org. UBu26XwokUyCwZvBzp5+kajy686RF4cdA/Un3Z3vtEARG8qx0hQfHoTk lGfGPkt21QdZmqX+ZJcdO3LfA+qU9A3aEJMXZi9aMZkPDWu1aPsJBu6U 3U3Tj9j+DsqL2Uk780TAqQQQWFUwIHF+y0hcRIWPaqUuvygl/5jxdVDN Mls= ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION: mx.pao1.isc.org. 3541 IN A 149.20.64.53 mx.ams1.isc.org. 3544 IN A 199.6.1.65 mx.pao1.isc.org. 3541 IN AAAA 2001:4f8:0:2::2b mx.ams1.isc.org. 3544 IN AAAA 2001:500:60::65 mx.pao1.isc.org. 3541 IN RRSIG A 5 4 3600 20190206233333 20190107233333 13902 pao1.isc.org. WrDcCGC0SmNUSh+DBxogVXWU2PQVpJ/6S/WJxpU4fLDpI+0J85aep+e1 NwZRUuw9N5RRuslQSz0y+aiwB0RACq2wbPUxDem21KpzKE8rlrAlf0U9 k9sT1PeCkWu7QOiWgEksnoJijyCVY41Q/GB0HnWzaO4jUtay6e/PBj4c IiA= mx.pao1.isc.org. 3541 IN RRSIG AAAA 5 4 3600 20190206233333 20190107233333 13902 pao1.isc.org. EaYgxAGrmJ9oiX4u2DfIcHKCqen3RNGylmWT0VjJ8VWY5e/c5TA1eI5U evGsvYhvLD4WvR8hzvKxp4Pc5EYKLoB+YRI4ttUgnTydsEI0xFCcgB4+ dFb+89h8e6tHSPhUa1wa7ObriKm1O5FzplEXLfNFbgEUN6oJOIMw7q8w cC8= _25._tcp.mx.pao1.isc.org. 3543 IN RRSIG TLSA 5 6 3600 20190206233333 20190107233333 13902 pao1.isc.org. liSDcLgGpDXqgTxkv2sQBI3OsACPflpxoZxcrgSge4yTe5gA97NOPe0l ECmDBPzUkhcRI6Mwv+uBCmm5FBvgh0leNxLXzACdkCX8EscE3v74wd5o ReCRGFAhV6TBjycwejkGARVTYF23RyRflq2/fRV2hoOdH2ImcW7/SMqA 8Jg= mx.ams1.isc.org. 3544 IN RRSIG A 5 4 3600 20190206233315 20190107233315 5730 ams1.isc.org. E+6nzEbFAcftlr3UTaCcw0LAHYIdVe5TNfyIwVwU71AzZB22jiif/BrQ KxemOrR7LT7ukfDRjnEzfV1/s0Wwfxh0b79otxrDwssKzNKz9XhaIhVf j17oyuQBkYjYv5RBuwsrmKQmSbu56Zu7G35xp2qbKi6E+3lpXPghnrnJ DBk= mx.ams1.isc.org. 3544 IN RRSIG AAAA 5 4 3600 20190206233315 20190107233315 5730 ams1.isc.org. ov/6HUTx8v7t31KBYVgDy02Bpe8rJX431vPDdRZvKKhffFrYmUOIXEqD Q/3+DNV1axSJCTONJ1NwzoSC8LDwQQFUcAsXnhcW/C/Z3rbaEthetmmP TERuRGjF3QdA+qFM8RCc83s+hp1RXo5cU+9wA8OTPT5nTmfthkDs/cUi 0o8= _25._tcp.mx.ams1.isc.org. 3545 IN RRSIG TLSA 5 6 3600 20190206233315 20190107233315 5730 ams1.isc.org. qdzOyIbkPhufqw6/B5bwpxJ0pfVeUay2v8O5spUa+xgHdLQFNS851vlW KOYrNfZALDomXkOyfAVTEZXQ1g3xf0gzIcRCy0PHcgDtgl5a56AilFGB n6LZVkh6lbAkQ8lSmlKWmOvAmJnXh6L6dX8/CQzpWT7G0EEL1EcvLW6p uZ0= _25._tcp.mx.pao1.isc.org. 3543 IN TLSA 3 0 1 71903FF43D60CA91BDB7AA0DFE9C247B1A2C5A6002C436451C3C1684 0C607AE0 _25._tcp.mx.ams1.isc.org. 3545 IN TLSA 3 0 1 5EF9B10DA21B2711522982EAD699FBABE77FD07FF07AC810608A85DA 66AFE916 ;; Query time: 7 msec ;; SERVER: 127.0.0.1#53(127.0.0.1) ;; WHEN: Sat Jan 12 07:09:18 AEDT 2019 ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 1555 %
-- Töma
-- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org
11 Jan. 2019 г., 23:19 Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>:
So STARTTLS strip is not a problem anymore?
If you deploy DANE (client and server sides) then stripping STARTTLS is ineffective for the target domain.
If you defer to send (and finally bounce) everything targeted at a domain that fails TLSA lookup, then fair enough. I don't think this is (and is going to be in the near future) the case for the dumpsterfire mailing list, but you may rightfully assume I haven't checked yet.
gmail.com hasn’t (server side at least).
Google folks are on this mailing list, so it's best if they speak for me (though I believe I pretry much know their reasoning). -- Töma
Whaddya expect guys, the mailing list is hosted on an embedded DVR recorder On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:52 PM Töma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.com> wrote:
11 Jan. 2019 г., 23:19 Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>:
So STARTTLS strip is not a problem anymore?
If you deploy DANE (client and server sides) then stripping STARTTLS is ineffective for the target domain.
If you defer to send (and finally bounce) everything targeted at a domain that fails TLSA lookup, then fair enough. I don't think this is (and is going to be in the near future) the case for the dumpsterfire mailing list, but you may rightfully assume I haven't checked yet.
gmail.com hasn’t (server side at least).
Google folks are on this mailing list, so it's best if they speak for me (though I believe I pretry much know their reasoning).
-- Töma
On 01/11/2019 12:32 PM, Rob McEwen wrote:
but if done right, fwiw,, wouldn't that be sent over SMTP using TLS encryption?
Oy vey. in-flight vs at-rest encryption. <facepalm>
(but, then again, that ALSO requires a certificate!)
Let's Encrypt works perfectly fine for that too. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die
On 1/11/2019 2:50 PM, Grant Taylor via NANOG wrote:
On 01/11/2019 12:32 PM, Rob McEwen wrote:
but if done right, fwiw,, wouldn't that be sent over SMTP using TLS encryption?
Oy vey. in-flight vs at-rest encryption. <facepalm>
which is why i said "fwiw", acknowledging upfront that TLS transmission encryption has a limited scope. I guess you missed that? But I was specifically replying to a complaint about passwords being sent in plain text, and I was suggesting that TLS would solve that problem. At that point in the discussion, it wasn't a discussion about all things encryption. ("context" is very helpful - are you still facepalming?)
On 01/11/2019 12:32 PM, Rob McEwen wrote:
(but, then again, that ALSO requires a certificate!) Let's Encrypt works perfectly fine for that too. }:-)
Exactly! That was sort of my point too. The person creating that dumpsterfire list seemed to be trying to avoid having to install a security certificate, but having that security certificate solves other problems besides the website getting https, such as enabling TLS, too. That was my basic point, I was just trying to be less wordy. -- Rob McEwen, invaluement
On 1/11/19 12:11 PM, Andreas Ott wrote:
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 12:17:09PM -0500, Rich Kulawiec wrote:
On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 08:23:31AM -0800, Yang Yu wrote:
* no HTTPS
HTTPS isn't needed for this application. I'll probably add it anyway when I have a chance, but there are other things ahead of it.
I respectfully disagree:
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/options/dumpsterfire/bofh@example.com
asks for a "password" which is then transported over clear text. The year is 2019 and there's always letsencrypt SSL certs. Admittedly, mailman does send you the password in clear text over SMTP if you ask for it.
-andreas
To borrow a quote: The 'S' in IoT stands for 'Security'.
I thought it stood for ZEPPELIN.
Thank you! Forwarded that to the RIPE IoT WG. 10 Jan. 2019 г., 19:23 Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org>:
The "dumpsterfire" mailing list is for the discussion of security and privacy issues related to the IoT (Internet of Things). Arguably, the entire IoT *is* a security and privacy issue, but we'll get to that in good time.
If you want to join, you can either use the list's web page:
http://www.firemountain.net/mailman/listinfo/dumpsterfire
or the list's subscription/unsubscription address:
dumpsterfire-request@firemountain.net
The list is public and so is its archive.
---rsk
participants (14)
-
Andreas Ott -
Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. -
Brian Kantor -
Bryan Holloway -
cosmo -
Grant Taylor -
J. Hellenthal -
Mark Andrews -
Mike Hammett -
Rich Kulawiec -
Rob McEwen -
Ross Tajvar -
Töma Gavrichenkov -
Yang Yu