Faced with the prospect once again of significantly higher energy prices coming to our region, we want to start to look at better and more efficient ways to cool our colocation facility. Right now we have several ton of traditional air conditioning units sucking up electricity like its free. As winter is approaching, surely there must be some computer safe way to take advantage of all that cold outside to help contain our energy costs, not to mention be a little more environmentally friendly. We were thinking we could circulate the air up to the roof and cool it there inside some aluminum ducts and then bring it back down. We dont want to just bring in cold air as it is quite dirty outside since we are next to a major highway. Anyone done anything like this before in a computer room setting ? ---Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 Sentex Communications, mike@sentex.net Providing Internet since 1994 www.sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net/mike
google search for "air to air heat exchanger" - there are many companies that make products that do exactly what you want. ---rob Mike Tancsa <mike@sentex.net> writes:
Faced with the prospect once again of significantly higher energy prices coming to our region, we want to start to look at better and more efficient ways to cool our colocation facility. Right now we have several ton of traditional air conditioning units sucking up electricity like its free. As winter is approaching, surely there must be some computer safe way to take advantage of all that cold outside to help contain our energy costs, not to mention be a little more environmentally friendly. We were thinking we could circulate the air up to the roof and cool it there inside some aluminum ducts and then bring it back down. We dont want to just bring in cold air as it is quite dirty outside since we are next to a major highway. Anyone done anything like this before in a computer room setting ?
---Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 Sentex Communications, mike@sentex.net Providing Internet since 1994 www.sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net/mike
On 5 Nov 2003, at 11:22, Neil J. McRae wrote:
google search for "air to air heat exchanger" - there are many companies that make products that do exactly what you want.
I'd be interested to see if these actually save any money. I'd guess that the cost of moving the air around is going to be a factor.
Seems to me that you have to move air regardless of what you use to cool it. Joe
I've seen some designs that actually use water as the transport and many-finned radiators at each end. Radiator transfer heat into cold water inside which is pumped up a radiator in the sub-zero temps on the roof and exchanged and then looped back. Same basic principle as a traditional residential heat-pump that loops through the ground 20 feet down or so. I think using straight air would probably not be as efficient as a closed-loop water transfer. On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Joe Abley wrote:
On 5 Nov 2003, at 11:22, Neil J. McRae wrote:
google search for "air to air heat exchanger" - there are many companies that make products that do exactly what you want.
I'd be interested to see if these actually save any money. I'd guess that the cost of moving the air around is going to be a factor.
Seems to me that you have to move air regardless of what you use to cool it.
Joe
The Arctic Region Supercomputing Centre in Fairbanks, Alaska would be a good candidate for this... * <http://www.arsc.edu/resources/yukon.html>Yukon -- 272-processor CRAY T3E * <http://www.arsc.edu/resources/chilkoot.html>Chilkoot -- 32-processor CRAY SV1ex * <http://www.arsc.edu/resources/klondike.html>Klondike -- 512-processor CRAY X1 * <http://www.arsc.edu/resources/icehawk.html>Icehawk -- 200-processor IBM SP * <http://www.arsc.edu/resources/iceflyer.html>Iceflyer -- 32-processor IBM Regatta * <http://www.arsc.edu/resources/iceberg.html>Iceberg -- 800-processor IBM System * <http://www.arsc.edu/resources/rime.html>Rime -- 8-processor CRAY SX-6 http://www.arsc.edu/ For those who have never visited Fairbanks, there is a phenomena observed at -15C and lower known as "square tire". The rubber in tires of parked vehicles will become stiff and freeze into position, making the vehicle impossible to move without destroying the tires. To the best of my knowledge the ARSC does have conventional AC units, as Fairbanks reaches +24C and higher in mid summer. -Eric Kuhnke At 11:49 AM 11/5/2003 -0600, you wrote:
I've seen some designs that actually use water as the transport and many-finned radiators at each end. Radiator transfer heat into cold water inside which is pumped up a radiator in the sub-zero temps on the roof and exchanged and then looped back.
Same basic principle as a traditional residential heat-pump that loops through the ground 20 feet down or so.
I think using straight air would probably not be as efficient as a closed-loop water transfer.
On 5 Nov 2003, at 15:42, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
For those who have never visited Fairbanks, there is a phenomena observed at -15C and lower known as "square tire". The rubber in tires of parked vehicles will become stiff and freeze into position, making the vehicle impossible to move without destroying the tires.
The coldest recorded temperature in North America was -63C in Snag, Yukon on 3 February 1947. On the same day, in Tanacross, Alaska, -59.4C was recorded. -15C is a normal daytime winter temperature in Southwestern Ontario; a very cold day might approach -30C. There are a fabulous number of places in Canada where the temperature remains below -15C for weeks and months at a time. I haven't been here (in Southwestern Ontario) that long, but I think if there was some danger that tyres would rip off my wheels when I drove off in the morning, someone would have tried to sell me something by now. It is hard to believe that tyres used in Alaska would cease to be useful at only -15C. That's not even cold, really. Shirt and sandals weather. Joe
On Wed, 2003-11-05 at 13:31, Joe Abley wrote:
On 5 Nov 2003, at 15:42, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
For those who have never visited Fairbanks, there is a phenomena observed at -15C and lower known as "square tire". The rubber in tires of parked vehicles will become stiff and freeze into position, making the vehicle impossible to move without destroying the tires.
The coldest recorded temperature in North America was -63C in Snag, Yukon on 3 February 1947. On the same day, in Tanacross, Alaska, -59.4C was recorded.
Of course there have been times that my wife has dropped the temperature below -63C with one of her looks :-( D
-15C is a normal daytime winter temperature in Southwestern Ontario; a very cold day might approach -30C. There are a fabulous number of places in Canada where the temperature remains below -15C for weeks and months at a time. I haven't been here (in Southwestern Ontario) that long, but I think if there was some danger that tyres would rip off my wheels when I drove off in the morning, someone would have tried to sell me something by now.
It is hard to believe that tyres used in Alaska would cease to be useful at only -15C. That's not even cold, really. Shirt and sandals weather.
Joe
For those who have never visited Fairbanks, there is a phenomena observed at -15C and lower known as "square tire". The rubber in tires of parked vehicles will become stiff and freeze into position, making the vehicle impossible to move without destroying the tires.
The coldest recorded temperature in North America was -63C in Snag, Yukon on 3 February 1947. On the same day, in Tanacross, Alaska, -59.4C was recorded.
Of course there have been times that my wife has dropped the temperature below -63C with one of her looks :-(
I could make a joke here about destroying onesself if you tried to move from one of those looks too. :) Instead, I'll just say, "Don't let her look at your car like that." DJ
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 12:42:16 PST, Eric Kuhnke <eric@fnordsystems.com> said:
For those who have never visited Fairbanks, there is a phenomena observed at -15C and lower known as "square tire". The rubber in tires of parked vehicles will become stiff and freeze into position, making the vehicle impossible to move without destroying the tires.
I can't speak for Alaska, but I've had to drive at -40(C/F) in northern NY. Yes, the tires get 'square', and will go a bit wump wump wump until they warm up (usually after a half mile or so). However, a tire should be able to deal with this without much trouble (or at least in almost a decade of trying I never actually managed to damage a tire noticably that way). What *is* embarassing and potentially a big issue is if you've been driving, the tires are warmed up, and you park on a layer of several inches of snow/ice, and return a few hours later to find the tires have melted down into the ice and then refrozen.....
Eric Kuhnke wrote:
For those who have never visited Fairbanks, there is a phenomena observed at -15C and lower known as "square tire". The rubber in tires of parked vehicles will become stiff and freeze into position, making the vehicle impossible to move without destroying the tires.
In Ottawa, there's usually a week's worth of -25C as a _high_ temperature for the day during the winter, and occasional dips below -40C. "Square tire" just means it goes thumpity for a few hundred yards. Rubber embrittlement is more a phenomena for the -70Cs (near -100F) and below. But if you have a tire get frozen into ice, that may be a different story... More intriguing is what has to be done at high arctic places (like little Ellesmere island, the northernmost mine in the world). Most of the vehicles are Toyota diesel pickups (winter weight fuel, you betcha!). They never shut the engines down. Except when they're indoors for an oil change.
Chris Lewis wrote:
More intriguing is what has to be done at high arctic places (like little Ellesmere island, the northernmost mine in the world). Most of the vehicles are Toyota diesel pickups (winter weight fuel, you betcha!). They never shut the engines down. Except when they're indoors for an oil change.
You "foreigners" are scary. As a UK resident, born in Oz many many years ago, I consider -10C to be very very cold. Peter
Peter Galbavy wrote:
You "foreigners" are scary. As a UK resident, born in Oz many many years ago, I consider -10C to be very very cold.
You know it's cold when you have to deal with diesel fuel in chunk form by shovel. (Well, actually, with a fork. It solidifies into a rather waxy/oozy gunk. In a previous life, I worked in a refinery lab, testing for fuel freezing points down to -100F/-80F amongst other fun things.).
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Lewis" <clewis@nortelnetworks.com> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:43 AM Subject: Re: cooling systems
Peter Galbavy wrote:
You "foreigners" are scary. As a UK resident, born in Oz many many years ago, I consider -10C to be very very cold.
You know it's cold when you have to deal with diesel fuel in chunk form by shovel. (Well, actually, with a fork. It solidifies into a rather waxy/oozy gunk. In a previous life, I worked in a refinery lab, testing for fuel freezing points down to -100F/-80F amongst other fun things.).
A friend of mine was on a crew that was setting up a drilling rig in the mountains of Wyoming. In an effort to get -any- kind of heat, they opened the valve on the propane tank and it blubed a couple of times into a steel bucket. They all stood around throwing matches at it but it wouldn't lite. They finally gave up and went back to the truck to get warm. The whiskey which was on the dashboard was frozen solid.
On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Peter Galbavy wrote:
You "foreigners" are scary. As a UK resident, born in Oz many many years ago, I consider -10C to be very very cold.
Uhm, 9/5 * -10 +32 . . . 14 degrees ? Peshaw. As long as it's over 0 I'm OK. ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/
For those who have never visited Fairbanks, there is a phenomena observed at -15C and lower known as "square tire". The rubber in tires of parked vehicles will become stiff and freeze into position, making the vehicle impossible to move without destroying the tires. To the best of my knowledge the ARSC does have conventional AC units, as Fairbanks reaches +24C and higher in mid summer.
As someone who has lived in Saskatchewan all his life, I can tell you that "square tire" does not usually involve destruction of the tire. If your tire is slightly flat, it can certainly freeze with a flat side. This makes driving interesting for a while, but the tire will thaw as it is driven on.
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Mike Tancsa wrote:
Faced with the prospect once again of significantly higher energy prices coming to our region, we want to start to look at better and more efficient ways to cool our colocation facility. Right now we have several ton of traditional air conditioning units sucking up electricity like its free. As winter is approaching, surely there must be some computer safe way to take advantage of all that cold outside to help contain our energy costs, not to mention be a little more environmentally friendly. We were thinking we could circulate the air up to the roof and cool it there inside some aluminum ducts and then bring it back down. We dont want to just bring in cold air as it is quite dirty outside since we are next to a major highway. Anyone done anything like this before in a computer room setting ?
---Mike
The R2000 houses have a heat exchanger to recover heat from the air that is being expelled from the house. Maybe the same device just running in reverse. K
There are indoor units that have multiple coil sets. One can be utilized for mechanical cooling, the other can be used for "free cooling" mechanisms. For example, a water loop can be implemented that rejects its heat via a roof-top evaporative tower. (e.g. the big BAC boxes you see "steaming" occasionally on roof tops or behind buildings). As long as it is cold enough outside, you might benefit from this. A large office complex I used to work in actually took this a step further. The waste heat from the computer rooms was used year round for building environmental purposes. It was used as first-stage heating in the winter. And in the summer, it was used as "re-heat", so that the building could offer effective dehumidification. (conventional re-heat using utility energy is poo pooed these days, because of the desire to conserve energy; this is why so many office buildings seem to be dank in the summer, not enough heat load to support the cooling needed to remove the moisture and re-heat is prohibited) If the indoor units you presently have rely on external mechanical cooling (chillers located somewhere else), then you may be able to have only the central chiller system "plumbing" modified to provide the "free cooling" capability. This would save the cost of changing-out the indoor units. Utilizing direct outside air is likely unacceptable. Even if you could filter it, it would be difficult to humidify. Schemes that involve running indoor air through air-to-air heat exchangers may become problematic if the outdoor air is very cold. You must take care not to inadvertently dehumidify your indoor air excessively. Also, you'll need to provide drainage for the air-air heat exchanger, and make sure you don't get condensation in the downstream ducting (a real pain in the GeorgeW, potentially leading to microbial growth, etc) Good luck Mr. Phelps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Tancsa" <mike@sentex.net> To: <nanog@nanog.org> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:29 AM Subject: cooling systems
Faced with the prospect once again of significantly higher energy prices coming to our region, we want to start to look at better and more efficient ways to cool our colocation facility. Right now we have several ton of traditional air conditioning units sucking up electricity like its free. As winter is approaching, surely there must be some computer safe way to take advantage of all that cold outside to help contain our energy costs, not to mention be a little more environmentally friendly. We were thinking we could circulate the air up to the roof and cool it there inside some aluminum ducts and then bring it back down. We dont want to just bring in cold air as it is quite dirty outside since we are next to a major highway. Anyone done anything like this before in a computer room setting ?
---Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 Sentex Communications, mike@sentex.net Providing Internet since 1994 www.sentex.net Cambridge, Ontario Canada www.sentex.net/mike
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Mike Tancsa wrote:
costs, not to mention be a little more environmentally friendly. We were thinking we could circulate the air up to the roof and cool it there inside some aluminum ducts and then bring it back down. We dont want to just bring in cold air as it is quite dirty outside since we are next to a major highway. Anyone done anything like this before in a computer room setting ?
Depending on the type of AC you have, it may already do that. If it is, say, a one piece roof mounted unit, with intake/oulet ducts attached to the building, then just leave the fan on all the time and it will do what you want. If it's a split unit, with copper tubeing bringing the freon from an outside to inside unit, then this doesn't work. ========================================================== Chris Candreva -- chris@westnet.com -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/
participants (16)
-
Andrew Kerr -
Chris Lewis -
Christopher X. Candreva -
Deepak Jain -
Eric Kuhnke -
Joe Abley -
Krzysztof Adamski -
Michael Painter -
Mike Tancsa -
neil＠DOMINO.ORG -
Peter Galbavy -
Robert A. Hayden -
Robert E. Seastrom -
Robert M. Enger -
Valdis.Kletnieks＠vt.edu -
W.D. McKinney